The Smart Divorce Podcast

A week in the life of a Relationship Therapist

• Tamsin Caine • Season 9 • Episode 5

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In this episode, Tamsin explores the work of relationship therapist Adele Ballatyne. If you are interested in working with a therapist post separation, or even if you are considering separation, this episode is a must listen, as we explore how Adele works both in and out of her client sessions.

Adele Ballantyne

I have experience in helping a wide variety of individuals, couples and families. My consultancy work with organisations includes contracts with hospitals, NHS Trust departments and corporate organisations.  

During the past eight years, I have been providing seminars and workshops (Continuing Professional Development) for family solicitors, barristers, mediators and judges, examining relationship break-down from a Relationship Psychology viewpoint and providing strategies and essential skills for improving outcomes with clients.  

I offer education and therapeutic support for legal professionals in an effort to raise awareness of the effects of vicarious trauma and stress, in order to help improve mental health and wellbeing.  My work includes helping separating couples through the difficult process of divorce in a therapeutic way and by attending collaborative round table meetings or mediation sessions, with couples and their lawyers/mediators.  

MA Relationship Therapy,
Member British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy (BACP)
Founder and Director Eleda Consultancy Limited
Member of Resolution, first for family law.

Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/eledaconsultancy/
Website: http://www.eledaconsultancy.com/
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Tamsin Caine

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/

To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.


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Tamsin Caine:

Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. This is series nine and in this series we're going to explore what makes up the working week of various different professionals who work in the divorce world. You'll start to understand what they do, both during the time that you see them, how they prepare for meetings, and what work goes into the work of a divorce professional outside of the time that you spend with them. I'm really looking forward to some amazing clients in this series. We talked to Barrister, Family Solicitor, Financial Planner, Divorce Coach and really hoping that you're going to enjoy it and get a lot from it as well.

Tamsin Caine:

Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast, and I'm really really happy to be joined today by Adele Ballantyne. Hi, Adele, how are you doing? Hi Tamsin, I'm really good, thank you. How are you? Fantastic, I'm good, thank you. I'm very much looking forward to digging deeper into your work. So, to introduce you properly, adele is owner and principal therapist at Eleda Consultancy. She's been working as a relationship therapist for a decade and a half, helping individuals, couples and families manage relationships that are stuck. She works predominantly in the divorce and separation space. Adele is passionate about early intervention work and reducing the emotional damage to children during their parents' separation. She also works with family law professionals, proving trying and support Not sure if I've read that right.

Adele Ballantyne:

We'll expand.

Tamsin Caine:

We'll dig deeper. I guess the starting point is that we've talked lots on this podcast about having the three areas covered when you're going through divorce of legal support, financial support and emotional support, and your work picks a massive pick against the box of emotional support. So I guess, to start with, what sort of clients come to you when abouts in their in the divorce process would they? Would they contact you?

Adele Ballantyne:

so I see clients and I it might be right at the beginning, before they've even made the decision to separate. So I'll often work with couples who are going through difficult times. Some of those couples manage to resolve issues, repair and regrow a new relationship that works better for them, and that's great and off they go. Others come and they're really struggling. You know, and I suppose the work with those couples right at the beginning we're looking at, ok, where are you now, how did you get there and what do you want to do next? And you know that's really important.

Adele Ballantyne:

So we will work through those questions and then we might get to a point where they're like so what's that going to look like if we separate? So then we might have some sessions that say, well, if you stay together and work at it, all of all of these issues, what could that look at like? Then we look at what happens if you choose to separate. What would life look like then? And especially if they have children? And that's a really important session because it provides a safe space for them to explore what separation might look like before they've made that decision. And then there's the third one, which is quite interesting and for a lot of people. They don't understand, if they're not in that position, why I would do that. But we look at what would life be like if you agree to stay together but don't make any changes.

Adele Ballantyne:

And that's equally important, because lots of people do that Lots of people will say, well, we'll put up with each other until the kids are older and then we'll leave, you know. But then that leads to other conversations. So I'll see people right at the beginning. I'll see people who have been to see their lawyers and who then have been sent. That's really good. When a family lawyer will say, go and see Adele, that's really lovely because I can then start that important early intervention work about their journey. And then I see people who have been divorced and who have perhaps been co-parenting really well, but then they've hit some bumps in the road and they need some help with that. So really it's along the whole timeline of a couple relationship that's in trouble to one that's ended, but they're now meeting some issues right.

Tamsin Caine:

So many questions just from that. So I guess the first and most straightforward question is is you talk most of that way through about working with couples? Is it always the couple together that you see, or do you work with one-to-one as well?

Adele Ballantyne:

no, I do one-to-one because sometimes and also this just really depends on where I meet that couple. So if I meet a couple together right at the beginning, then it's usual to work with the couple right the way through. Sometimes, if they come to me through a word of mouth referral or a solicitor referral or mediator referral or wherever um, then sometimes it's one person. So I've got, I had, three new inquiries yesterday and they were all from people who said that their ex-partners are really not interested in doing any work around resolving co-parenting issues, and so in those instances I'll work with that individual to provide them with some understanding and some strategies and to also reassure them sometimes that actually it's okay for them to carry on being the parent they're and to do it their way.

Adele Ballantyne:

Um, you know and how to how to manage a hostile ex or a difficult ex, or or someone who just won't speak to them. They get no communication at all.

Tamsin Caine:

You know, how do you manage to co-parent when, when you've got an ex who is is more challenging when you're meeting with a couple who haven't yet made the decision to separate, do you often find that they come in where you feel that one party actually has made the decision, that it's done or, and therefore there's a kind of disparity in where they're at emotionally. And how do how do you deal with that?

Adele Ballantyne:

Yeah, a lot of the time that is the case. If somebody said to me I'm waving a magic wand to tell what would you couples do? And I say come earlier. You know, if you have a Tuesday and it starts off with just a niggle every time you have a cup of tea and you leave it, chances are it'll either settle or it'll get worse. But you know, if you notice it's starting to get worse and you don't go and see the dentist, then you could end up in big trouble and you could lose the tooth and in a way that's a bit like a relationship if they had come sooner. It's really interesting because, um, I've just read a book called the Last Resort and it was a fiction book. I was on holiday and it was about uh, talk about busman's holiday.

Adele Ballantyne:

It was about um, a therapist, but it wasn't about the therapy per se, but it was called the Last last resort because this couple had gone to see the therapist as a last resort. I had a pound for every time. Somebody said to me you are our last hope.

Adele Ballantyne:

And I am so sad about that because if people came sooner you know I see people prenup as well before they get married, before they commit to moving in together I've got a really good series of 10 sessions where we sit down and we look at what's good, you know we look at behavior. How do you know when when your partner's not happy, you know? So if we learn more about relationships and don't see relationship therapy or couples therapy or whatever you want to call it, as a oh, we're going because you know this is the last last resort. If we could view it more as like we would going to the dentist and resolving, that would be really helpful and I wouldn't see the majority of people who come to see me as couples who are really, really yeah, one of them has made the decision, usually some time ago, about 18 months in my, in my okay that that's really struck a chord with me.

Tamsin Caine:

That feels really important, that the work that you do, even like the we're not here to talk about peanut work, really but actually that's really struck a chord with me because actually that kind of work in a second relationship actually might be massively useful. If you've been through a, you've been through a divorce yourself in a in a previous relationship, actually to go through that in the second relationship to kind of prepare you both for the, for this, what you might go through, that actually might be incredibly valuable. I didn't realise that was something that you did, but that's amazing.

Adele Ballantyne:

Yeah, it's any part of that relationship timeline really. And it's interesting because it's not only about because, if we look I'm not good with statistics, I'm dyslexic with stuff like that um, or just calculate, whatever you want to call it, but um, the, you know, blended families now are beginning to outweigh the, the nuclear family as as we would know it, and if we think about that, you know that's been happening gradually over the last decade or so, and when we have children within those blended families, you know they grow up witnessing all the complications that have not been resolved from their parents original unions, marriages, whatever and then they come into this blended family which, again, you know, can be wonderful if managed well, but also can be complicated, and multiple times.

Adele Ballantyne:

You know, blended family is multiple. So if we think about that and in terms of how those children grow up and then form their own relationships, they're already coming in with very different views about what's okay, what's not okay, how men treat women, how women treat men, how mums treat dads. You know so. So the work that we do within divorce and separation right now is so important because it will seriously and has been seriously affecting the mental health, well-being and lives and relationship lives of future generations oh no, you're.

Tamsin Caine:

You're absolutely um spot on um in what you say. I'm a child of divorced parents and I'm also divorced myself, so I've seen it from from both sides and and I know the impact that it can have. And you know my mum and dad absolutely, you know, did the best that they that they possibly could um, but you know, we're all human and we all, we all make mistakes and when I divorced there were some things that I did differently to avoid impacting my children. But you know, at the end of the day, you you don't really understand fully what impact you've had, your behavior has had, on on the kids any of it, let's be honest, not just in relationships, any of it.

Adele Ballantyne:

So yeah, that's really fascinating at the end of the day, you know we don't. We're not perfect as parents, we're not perfect as human beings. We get stuff wrong. Relationships are are really complex. I've been doing this job a long time. I'm still learning.

Adele Ballantyne:

I had a really interesting conversation the other day with somebody about um, people who push themselves forward as as experts and I'm you know. I'm not saying that they shouldn't do that. That's up to them what they do. I don't think I would ever put myself down as an expert. I'm someone who has expertise and I can facilitate, you know, a journey for somebody and help them to see things from very different perspectives, and I don't necessarily have to walk in your shoes to know what your life is like when, as a separated person, you know. Actually, sometimes it's better if I don't, if I'm very different. So so you know, this is about understanding that relationships are hard.

Adele Ballantyne:

We are emotional beings, whether we have been encouraged as children and in our growing up life to express emotion, to regulate emotion, to be resilient and be able to sit with discomfort and in a way that is healthy for some of the time. If we've been unable to do that, then we progress better. Um, through something like a separation. Do we make mistakes? Still, absolutely. But if we, if we have a partner who is the opposite of that, who has lived with a family, who sweep things into the carpet, who never, never talk about things, who never sit and have conversations and chances are if you're a partner who's had the conversation and the encouragement and the enablement, chances are you're going to pick the partner who is opposite to that and so, managing that at a time of huge emotional stress, you it's hard. So we've got to go easy on ourselves a little bit, but we do need to be informed about what our behavior as an adult is going to do to our children and how we can reduce the risk of that happening absolutely.

Tamsin Caine:

that's really interesting. I'm reading a book at the minute. It's called you Me. It might be the other way around, it might be Me, you, me, you and the Space in Between.

Tamsin Caine:

It's called and it's written by a couple and they're like yes, we're saying that we can help you with your relationship, but we don't always get it right, and we've been doing this work a long time. And if you look at our relationship, we don't always get it right and we've been doing this work a long time. And if you look at our relationship, we do still go through periods where, where we we struggle with our communication, even though we know all the tools and and I think that we've got to accept that you know, even you know, even if we know everything about a particular subject, as you say, we are in human it doesn't mean that everything's perfect in in that world for us. I'm interested to know. So if, um, let's start with, it might differ for a couple or an individual, but if somebody um wants to work with you, contact you and says hi, I've been recommended to come and speak to you, I believe you're amazing what happens next?

Adele Ballantyne:

Okay, that would be nice. Firstly, that would be lovely. Actually it is nice when somebody comes as a word of mouth recommendation. You saw my friend and you know that was helpful. That is really lovely Because you know getting testimonials from people doing what I do is difficult because nobody wants to admit they've been to see somebody like me you know because it's seen, you know, in a negative light.

Adele Ballantyne:

Anyway. So your question. So what happens? So, basically, I usually email because I spend a lot of time in consultation. It's really hard always to speak to somebody on the phone. I do try to, but initially I will contact them via email and I will arrange either a brief conversation, if they want to ask something in particular before they start. Sometimes they'll say can we start working straight away? That's not a problem. I usually see. If it's a couple, I usually see them individually to start with for a session and then together as a couple if it's safe to do so. And then we I work very collaboratively with a couple. So I am not the sort of therapist who says, right, 10 sessions once a week and then we'll review. I don't do that. We take it session by session.

Adele Ballantyne:

Depends on the work, what they are hoping for, what they want to go and try Time. Time is a factor. If you're working on your relationship in whatever way whether it's co-parenting, as divorced couple, or whether it's working to regrow a relationship it's got to have some priority in your life, because it will take time. Um, often couples who don't prioritize. So I remember many years ago, a couple who came to see me desperate. They were desperate to get this back on track and I said okay, and at the end of each session I sent them away with something to try, something to put into their everyday life. And every time they came back they said no, we haven't done it, we've been too busy. So we had to have the conversation after they'd done it three times. I just said right, let's stop, tell me why you're not doing the homework. And they ended up separating because they didn't really want to be together, but they thought they should be.

Adele Ballantyne:

So it's really interesting. You know that. So it has to be for me. Other people work in different ways, so sometimes I'll see them as a couple and then I might see them two weeks later, depending on what's going on. Sometimes it's a month later. It's how much time they have to fit it in. It's never more than once a week. Some people say can I come back tomorrow?

Tamsin Caine:

No, absolutely not.

Adele Ballantyne:

Because an hour with me emotionally is like a bit of a marathon and it's exhausting. It's like a bit of a marathon and it's exhausting and it will trigger some thoughts, some emotions, something that perhaps you've buried and that might not come for a few days.

Tamsin Caine:

And so we have to let time happen for people to reflect and to think before they come back. It's interesting that you say it's exhausting, and I've had various forms of therapy over the years and I'm perfectly happy to fess up to whoever's listening on this. I'm sure I've said it before anyway. Um, but I remember the first time I went. This was a hypnotherapy session actually. Remember the first time I went. This was a hypnotherapy session actually. But the first time I went for hypnotherapy I think it was an hour and a half or something that I was with the therapist and I came back and slept for three hours was absolutely shattered. There was no way I could have come back for the more, for more the following day, and then what I noticed was my mind and my emotions processing things and having weird dreams as well. Yeah, because it's that unconscious, isn't it? It's everything kind of working itself through, absolutely. Yeah, so, so interesting and and massively unexpected from me, and I imagine you, I imagine the people that you're working with, are experiencing a similar thing.

Adele Ballantyne:

They do, and not only during the therapy, because quite often when they come to me they're already at a certain level of emotional exhaustion because of what they've been going through in their relationship. You know, usually when relationships start to break down, it can be months or sometimes years in the making, and so by the time they come to me they're already quite fatigued emotionally and they may or may not realize that. They may just say, oh, work so hard at the moment, I'm so exhausted, exhausted. Well, some of that will be work, but some of it, if you're not happy, will be that emotional fatigue. And so quite often in sessions we'll talk about that. I will often say to clients look, this might feel worse before it feels better, because it often does. You might go away from a session thinking what the heck is this even about? I don't even know why we're going. And then the next time you might think thank god I've come back. You know, because because we go all over the place. You know, we, we.

Adele Ballantyne:

I remember a client once saying to me I've been seeing them for a while, so we had quite a good relationship and I remember him saying um, we'd had a particularly challenging session and I'd asked some quite direct questions and he said blooming heck, adele. Uh, you really don't mince about, do you with your words? And I said well, hey, you could be paying me, you know, to sit here with a nice cup of tea chatting about what the weather's like and how lovely the world is, and your relationship is going to stay the same. Or we can, you know, use this space, you know, to explore the difficult things that you struggle to explore, to explore. Um, knowing that I've, I've got this for you and you're going to be safe and we will get to before you leave, I will bring you back to that safe space, so you can, you can, leave the room and and feel relatively okay. Um, you know, people, you don't have therapy just to sit and have a nice cozy chat. You have therapy to find out what the heck is going on.

Tamsin Caine:

Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I really like about you, Adele, is that you don't mince words.

Adele Ballantyne:

I don't what's the point? Life is short, hey.

Tamsin Caine:

Absolutely, absolutely. Clive Macklin was talking to me about how she prepares for a meeting. I'm interested in how you get yourself ready for a session with clients.

Adele Ballantyne:

It's variable, depending on who's coming and whether it's an initial consultation, where I'm finding out, or whether it's ongoing. Obviously, I keep notes. They're quite scant. They usually consist of just one or two words. That will help me remember a conversation. And I really don't know how I do it.

Adele Ballantyne:

But I rarely forget clients I've worked with. I might forget their name, but the minute they start talking about, oh, I saw you about four years ago and you helped with this I think, oh, I know who they are and I remember you know a lot about those sessions. So I might just glance through the notes from the last session see what we've been talking about. But again, you know, I don't, I'm not really prepared, I don't have an agenda, because it's not about me. It's not about me, it's not about whether I've had similar experiences, it's not about whether you know that. That's something that I've never come across. It doesn't really matter what people bring. So I tend to just glance through those notes and then I start the session and I say OK, so where are we going today? What are we going to talk about today? And quite often people don't expect that when they first start coming, they think I'm going to be saying, right today we're going to be talking about this, this and this, and so some sessions can be quite directed when we're talking about.

Adele Ballantyne:

If we've got parents saying, well, how can we be better co-parents, then I might talk a little bit more during the session to talk about things like what children need from you as co-parents, what happens when you get it right. You know things that you can do to make communication good. What happens when you meet difficulties in, you know along the way. So sometimes it's more of an educational session, um, and then and then it may be that the next session with them is because they've identified something from the last session that they think they're going to struggle with. So we talk about OK, how can we resolve? So in terms of prep, there's not an awful lot of prep that I do. I know when I've had referrals from the court they say, oh, we'll send you the bundle.

Tamsin Caine:

And I say don't send me the bundle. And I said don't send me. Don't send me the bundle because I'm not, I'm not going to read it.

Adele Ballantyne:

I don't want to read somebody else's view about a couple and what's happened to them. I want to find out, and I, because I don't know that those professionals have listened properly, I don't know that they've inquired enough about when they said oh, they're really controlling whether they've just written x is controlling, or whether they said talk to me about that, help me to understand what that looks like for you, because chances are they may not have.

Adele Ballantyne:

They may have done, but you know, maybe they don't, and so I don't want to read somebody else's view, I want to make my own, yeah, so so I think that, um, in terms of prep, there isn't an awful lot, because I work with what, what happens on the day do you, um, do you do anything to prepare yourself like?

Tamsin Caine:

do you, um, I don't know, do you make yourself a cup of tea? Do you put lippy on? I've, very I've heard so many different things over the years about how people kind of mentally prepare themselves to be in, to be in that space where their own mind is clear of their thoughts so that they can be present for the, for the people in front of them. So do you have a ritual around that, or is it like I've been doing it so long? I just sit down and I'm there.

Adele Ballantyne:

No, no, I do and you know I think some of that comes from because I used to be a nurse years ago. And of course, as soon as you put your uniform on, you know you are stepping into a role where you become that professional and you know some of the things as a nurse that you have to do to people are really very nice and you know going in without a uniform on you know it's not as arming, if you like, as going in as that professional. So, and as a paediatric nurse, obviously I did some awful things to young children in the way of helping them to get better, and so you know that does help. So, and it is interesting because during the pandemic I dressed for work every day. You know I didn't sit there with just a blouse on and my PJ bottoms and some fluffy slippers, because for me.

Adele Ballantyne:

That's not. I just couldn't do that. So I would get up, I'd get dressed, I'd put my lippy on on, I'd do my hair and I put my shoes on, because shoes are quite important for me. And or, or, sometimes, bare feet in the summer, because it was quite hot. But, um, but, but generally I, I find, yes, I have to do that, and and, and I think it just gets your mind ready for what's ahead. You know, I'm going to work, even though I'm working from home and I'm on my computer, but I'm in my office and this office is a place of work, and so I do that. Yeah, definitely yeah.

Tamsin Caine:

I like. I like that idea of like I get. I get ready for work. This is my. I mean, it was my spare room pre-COVID. It's now my office, but as soon as I come in here, that's right. I'm in work mode now. I'm here and prepared and ready to be here for my clients. What's going on in my world is outside that door and it stays out there. It's really fascinating. So, aside from the work that you do face-to-face with clients where you're in sessions, what else does your work involve? What other things are going on in work but outside of face-to-face sessions?

Adele Ballantyne:

okay, so I, um, I deliver a lot of seminars um for um usually um people in the family law sector. Um, I deliver training both for clients and for um for um professionals. I think wherever I can go and help people to understand more about this process and what happens to families through this process, so that we can make it a kinder process. Um, then, that's a good thing. Um, I'm writing a book at the moment and, um, so hopefully that'll be out at some point if I can write the second half, which is interesting. Um, what else do I do? Um, yeah, I present at conferences and and um, yeah, that sort of thing. Really, I'm always reading and learning and thinking.

Adele Ballantyne:

I do spend quite a bit of time because I don't think we do that enough. We've got these massive brains in our heads that can do amazing things, and yet our time for allowing the creative side to come through, um, we, we don't always give time for that, and for me, that's how I work a lot of stuff out and I think about, okay, what might be helpful with that client, or what might be helpful in that workshop, or or even just thinking about the effects of what's going on in the world and what, what, what effect that will have on us as, firstly, human beings, but secondly, as social, social beings and communities of people together, and families being one of those communities, and that's something I spend a lot of time. I have supervision with my clinical supervisor once a month for an hour and a half and we we often talk about things like that. You know the effects of the pandemic on you know mental health, on you know fear. There's been such a lot of fear and and you know we look now at that time which was so scary, wasn't it? We were locked in our homes and there was this unseen danger, and now we're just walking around as if nothing had ever happened.

Adele Ballantyne:

And there are all those people who have long COVID and then people out there who are trying to disprove that even long COVID exists. Well, you know it matters if you're there and you were functioning perfectly well before you had COVID and now you struggle to get around. If you hear something like that, you know what does that do to you, what does that mean for you. You know we have to be careful, and I must admit I was quite selective and still am actually with news and things like that, because we live in a world of information, don't we? That is so easy to get to and, you know, anybody has a voice now and can reach hundreds and thousands and millions of people. Not all of those voices are carefully considered and we have to be selective. So I do spend a lot of time thinking, do you know?

Tamsin Caine:

it's interesting. When you were saying that you spend time thinking, I was. I know. Certainly at the moment my diary is insanely busy with being in in meetings but actually, as a result of that, my thinking time is not necessarily work time. So I might be in the shower and I'll think, oh, I should do that for that client. Oh, I wonder if we just looked at it a slightly different way. I wonder if we did that because it's my brain processing it when I'm, when I'm in that space for thinking, which might be in the shower, it might be when I go for a run or, you know, it's when you're doing something else, because your brain needs to process those things that are going on. So, actually setting time aside, the thinking seems like it's a simple idea. Yeah, but in a work environment.

Adele Ballantyne:

How many of the listeners listening to this podcast? How many of you would be seen to be working if you were sitting at your desk thinking you know? It's like um, billable hours for lawyers, isn't it? Is it six minute intervals, something like that?

Adele Ballantyne:

yeah, I think that is one of the most dreadful things ever to submit a human being to because, yeah, all it does is make money. It does nothing for that person's well-being, nothing to reflect the quality of the work of that practitioner, and it causes so much stress. You know, and what we're learning about the human body is that stress what you know, that's and that's just one aspect um leads to inflammation in our bodies. What happens when we live with long-term inflammation? We get sick.

Adele Ballantyne:

So if you switch on your computer in the morning and you see a graph which reflects how much money you're making because of the minutes that you're billing for and you're not doing so well, but you've worked a 12-hour day and you've not really slept because you know that you've got another 12-hour day tomorrow and you've got some really challenging work right now, that's really not going to help. And if you're neurodiverse, that's really not going to help you. So so we need to be thinking in a different way, because we we need to understand that sometimes somebody's sitting at their desk thinking is working. Yeah absolutely.

Tamsin Caine:

I think. I think it's the. It's similar to reading. I have a.

Tamsin Caine:

I have a similar feeling about people reading, because it's really important that, as professionals, we're continually learning, we're continually helping to understand, work, our um I was going to say industry, I don't. It's not an industry, but our professionalism, the area in which we specialize in to understand the people who might, who we might, be working with, and the best way to do that is by reading a lot. And I do think sometimes that it's like, oh well, you're just reading, you should do that in your spare time. And it's like no, this reading is is important, it's developing me. I need to do it whilst I'm bright and alert and in the morning, and not after an eight hour day or or whatever. And I think, I think, yeah, we do have a bit of an attitude towards working in this country and I don't know if it's the same in others that that's like if you're sat at your desk typing or you're in a meeting, that's proper work, but actually other things aren't necessarily um, but I still think they, they absolutely can be.

Tamsin Caine:

I saw him, there was a, there's a, a lady who, um is a charter financial planner who, um I met a few years ago and so she posted on linkedin yesterday about how she'd had a walking meeting with one of her clients. So somebody had wanted to talk about about their financial position. But they wanted to do while they were walking because it's a lot easier, because you're side by side so you're facing forwards, it's like driving, so you can kind of open up more easily and and it's that kind of space and time and whatever. And I thought I she runs her own business, but I wonder, if she was working within a corporate environment, what the bosses of that company would perhaps think if you were to do that.

Adele Ballantyne:

Yeah, I think there's certainly been a lot of research into therapy anyway, done out, walking about. I have done it myself from time to time and what I would say is that it is a great way. If you've been working with a client, either via Zoom or face-to-face in an office, if you're at a point where you're really quite stuck, where you've reached an impasse, sometimes getting out and walking. You're at a point where you're really quite stuck, or you've reached an impasse, sometimes getting out and walking. You're in, you're in a different place, you know the fact that you're not penned in by four walls, you're breathing the fresh air. You know you, you are suddenly shifting, shifting, and where before there were no possibilities, suddenly there are, and and it's it is a lovely way, way to work, and why not? As long as it's safe, as long as you are still that professional, you know, and you're not just turning in into a friendly chat. You know, then it's a good thing to do and you're still working, of course you're still working.

Tamsin Caine:

Absolutely Well. Coming towards the end of our time together, I knew that you and me could have chatted for all day easily, but I just want to touch on co-parenting because I know that's an area that's that's very close to your heart and and it's an area that that is close to my heart because I am a co-parent. Um, and I wondered if, if there was, was anything that people could do that whilst they were going through the emotional upheaval of divorce, that anything that you would suggest people do to help them get onto the right co-parenting path from right at the beginning, from early on.

Adele Ballantyne:

I think I use this analogy a lot because I think it's really relevant. I use this analogy a lot because I think it's really relevant and what I would say and often say when I'm speaking is that if somebody said to you, tam's in tomorrow or next week, where are we now? Thursday, so next week you've got to go and climb to Mount Everest. To go and climb to Mount Everest, basically, okay, okay, what do you think that you would need in order for you to achieve that safely and, you know, in a way that means that you can carry on functioning? When you get that, what kind of things would you need? You know, certainly, if somebody said that to me, I would be thinking firstly, where is it? My geography skills?

Tamsin Caine:

are useless.

Adele Ballantyne:

That is not my skill set.

Adele Ballantyne:

You know I have a daughter who she's just doing her mountain leader assessment this week. She's amazing. She could get you anywhere. You know I would go and speak to her. You know where is it. How do I get there? What kit would I need? Do I need to do any training beforehand? What pieces, nuggets of information would I need to do? That means I could probably achieve this in a good way. Do I need anybody to come with me for support? I would be asking all of those questions, you know how much is it going to cost?

Adele Ballantyne:

How can I do it in a way that isn't going to cost me an absolute fortune? You know, I need to know those little nuanced pieces of information. Like you know, so many people are pushed off their path by yaks every year and die. I need to know that information.

Tamsin Caine:

That's crucial.

Adele Ballantyne:

Somebody going through a separation and a divorce and especially when they have children, that is their trip to Mount Everest Base Camp. So what do you need, what? What do you think you need to help you get there, get through it safely, and to think about that. When a relationship breaks down, you know it's a couple relationship that ends. If you've got children, you are still a family and the needs of your children remain the same. You're on a two journey relationship breakdown and the beginning of co-parenting. Keep the journey separate, because the behavior that you go through when a relationship ends the emotional journey is brief those five stages. You go through it, your ex goes through it, your kids go through it. Your ex goes through it, your kids go through it. All the extended family and friends will go through it to a greater or lesser extent.

Adele Ballantyne:

The behavior for some of those emotions looks the same in children as it does in adults. The reasons for that behavior differ. Don't confuse the two. So on a day when you get out of bed and you're angry that your ex has left you for somebody else, or just because they don't love you anymore, or whatever, it is the day you get up feeling like that because you're in anger today. You know it may be that your kids get up and they're cross today. You easily assume you know, having asked them what's the matter. Today you seem a bit cross, one cross because I haven't seen daddy. You know daddy's gone. You might think daddy's gone. Yeah, he has gone. You might think it's the same. They're missing that parent. Yeah, you're grieving the loss and you are feeling rejected, and you are. You know a lot of different things to what your child is going through. Don't assume they're the same as you, because they're not.

Tamsin Caine:

That's really good advice. I'd never thought of it in those terms before, but that's incredibly useful. We are coming towards the end of our time together. I just want to ask if there's anything that I should have asked you that we haven't covered.

Adele Ballantyne:

I don't think so. I don't think so.

Tamsin Caine:

I think we've been all over, haven't we today?

Adele Ballantyne:

No, it's been really lovely Tamsin. Thank you for asking me to be on the podcast. I've really enjoyed it.

Tamsin Caine:

It's been an absolute pleasure to have you. Thank you, adele, and thank you for joining us, and if you have enjoyed today's podcast, please do leave us a review and please do sign up so that you don't miss any episodes and we'll see you soon.

Tamsin Caine:

Don't miss any episodes and we'll see you soon, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on Apple podcasts or on spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.

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Tamsin Caine

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