Coparenting - a Real Life View

Tamsin is joined by Catherine & Andy Morgan as they discuss how to turn divorce challenges into a supportive co-parenting partnership and how to create a stable, loving environment for their kids.

Tamsin Caine

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
https://smartdivorce.co.uk

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/

To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.

Chapters

• 0:54 Co-Parenting Success After Divorce
• 12:01 Navigating Co-Parenting Challenges Successfully
• 24:31 Effective Co-Parenting Reflections
• 28:12 Co-Parenting Organization and Financial Arrangements
• 36:32 Co-Parenting Holiday Arrangements
• 44:50 Connecting and Supporting Divorced Families

Transcript

Tamsin Caine: 0:55

Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast. This is series nine and in this series we're going to explore what makes up the working week of various different professionals who work in the divorce world. You'll start to understand what they do, both during the time that you see them, how they prepare for meetings, and what work goes into the work of a divorce professional outside of the time that you spend with them. I'm really looking forward to some amazing clients in this series we talked to barrister, family solicitor, financial planner, divorce coach and really hoping that you're going to enjoy it and get a lot from it as well.

Tamsin Caine: 1:45

Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast, and it's very special because I'm going to be speaking for the first time to a couple who are now divorced but have an amazing co-parenting relationship, and they're going to tell us how they got from the beginning, where I'm assuming and I am assuming that it wasn't always perfect and where they now, which is a good level of co-parenting relationship. So I'm really excited to welcome Catherine Morgan and Andy Morgan. Thank you both so much for joining me, no problem. So, Catherine, do you want to just introduce yourself? Just talk a little bit about what you do and tell us about the kids that you're co-parenting together.

Catherine Morgan: 2:34

Sure. So I'm Catherine. I have two sons. We have two sons, nine and 12, two boys. I trained as an accountant and retrained into financial services as an advisor. We've been divorced for eight years and I'm based down in the south.

Tamsin Caine: 2:54

Fabulous, Andy, welcome. Can you tell us a little bit about about you?

Andy Morgan: 2:59

Sure, I am a project engineer for an engineering company. I've been there many years, many, many years. I live probably 15 minutes or so away from Catherine and the boys, so we're nice and close. I decided to move somewhere which was between work and the marital home, I guess. So we're very close by and we have quite a fluid share with the children. We have fixed days but we're quite fluid in between.

Tamsin Caine: 3:30

We hav e fixed days, but we're quite fluid in between, so the boys were young when you got divorced. What was it like initially, Andy? What were some of the hurdles that you needed to get over?

Andy Morgan: 3:44

So initially the hurdles were personal hurdles. For me, sitting in a new home on my own quietness and just myself, was a big hurdle to get over. That was quite unpleasant initially, but what got me through, I guess, is knowing that we did this for the right reasons, for the long-term reasons, and the short-term pain would would be short-term how long, wouldn't know because the process just moves on as it does in your minds and how you get on with each other. That that was. That was a big hurdle personally. For myself, um, the other hurdles were deciding on the share of the children who would have them when.

Andy Morgan: 4:32

So when I, when I was, um, relatively young, my parents split up and I saw my dad every other weekend. It wasn't enough from my point of view as a child, I think, is the main key thing there. So I wanted to make sure that I saw my children regularly, more than just once every two weeks. So that that was a hurdle to get through. We came to a good arrangement I see them officially every other weekend and every wednesday. I think that's quite a nice, a nice, um amount of time and consistency for them to, for me as well to still feel close to them yeah, absolutely that.

Tamsin Caine: 5:12

That's a really good point, because actually deciding on not just the amount of time that you see them, but how you're going to structure that that time is really difficult. You know, I've heard of people that well it's, we always have them half a week each, or we always have them a week each each, and we change on this day and and then it it can get really complicated. I'm interested in how, how, not how the negotiations went, because I don't need to know about the battles, but how you came to that, that agreement about how, about when you would spend time with them I don't think it's too long.

Andy Morgan: 5:53

My base point to to Catherine was what I said every other weekend is, I guess what would you call it? Industry standard, and that wouldn't be enough for me, now that my base point was more than that, so that that was the point we started talking and thinking about. Okay, what would, what wouldn't work? Let's let's try and keep something that is that is fixed and it's fixed for the children so they know exactly what's happening when you know as a standard to keep it, keep it steady for them. Um, I was quite lucky in the fact that my work were flexible in the Wednesdays in particular, because I'd have to finish work early to pick them up. I'd have to start work on the Thursday to drop them at school, so they were flexible in moving my hours on a permanent basis. So that was a big help in things too, how we came about exactly on Wednesdays and every other weekend. I guess we just both spoke through it what we were both happy with.

Tamsin Caine: 6:58

How do you deal with holidays? Is there a different arrangement in holidays?

Andy Morgan: 7:02

Holidays yeah, so in the holiday periods, I guess officially nothing's official because it's between the two of us, but I do have them for a week in the summer for a holiday, other holiday periods that they go to camps and do normal things into Easter, summer holidays. But we do keep it relatively fluid as well on on those periods because obviously we're both workers. So it's it's a challenge for everybody. So I'm quite lucky these days, especially since Covid, that I do work from home so they can be here, they can, they can, they can be with Kate. That you know it's it's, it's quite nice and fluid. I keep using the word fluid for some reason. Maybe that that is the word, but for how it is, yeah, it's all up for discussion. There's nothing to set, if you like.

Tamsin Caine: 7:55

I I like the word fluid and I think I think it's massively important to have that like it's fixed, so that everybody kind of knows where they are. But if something changes, then you can. You can move about that. Nobody's going to go, no, but it's definitely your weekend or whatever. You know things change, don't they? Catherine, how has the co-parenting changed over time? Because, as I mentioned before, the boys were little when you first divorced and obviously now they're heading rapidly towards the teenage years. How have things changed for you as co-parents during that time?

Catherine Morgan: 8:42

probably we've stuck to what Andy said. You know the schedule is the same, but I guess it's more a measure of how we've carried on being friends post-divorce that enables that fluidity that Andy said. I mean it is still a Wednesday. We've had times where we've said, well, maybe we should move to a Tuesday night or the Thursday night, but then we've always come back to Wednesday's quite a good midweek point. You know, I don't want them not seeing daddy for four days. Five days it's too long and I think also it's just about putting the boys always first.

Catherine Morgan: 9:20

It was never set up just because of what we needed. It was what would work for them. You don't go from being married to not married. There's a long transition and Andy moving out and getting his home established, and so always I think we were both quite conscious that they were 18 months and four, but that they you've just made these lives and and they're still there and even if your marriage hasn't worked, they're still there and they need looking after and they've been with daddy every day and they've been with mummy every day. So how've been with mummy every day. So how do you create a life where they still get a lot of that? And so I mean now it's probably more.

Catherine Morgan: 10:05

We're more involved than ever because they're not babes in arms. They have to be driven to a football club, rugby club. We're seeing a play together at school tonight that one of them's in. We go to parents evenings together. We might sometimes have a break together. We'll do the old thing at Christmas together and that's a measure, I think, of the friendship.

Catherine Morgan: 10:21

You know we could be very separate, but actually the boys need their parents at sports day, they need their parents at this, that and the other. So, without kind of confusing them that we're still married, I think we turn up as the team because they deserve to have their mum and their dad there and that shouldn't change just because the marriage hasn't worked out. I mean, andy will call every day, often on the way to school, and if you know if there's something to say or just what's happening in your day or if there's been exams and how did they go. You know he's a very, ever present person in their lives and we I certainly hope they'll grow up and think, unlike Andy said with his, you know that they absolutely saw their dad, knew their dad, had full access to their dad. He was involved in every part of their life. So that's the way I'd like it to to be. And we work.

Tamsin Caine: 11:16

You know we work hard on that oh, do you know what that's so lovely like? I've got a lump in my throat. I I had a? Um similar experience in my parents divorce um, the the one you described and um, when I got divorced, that that it was that co-parenting relationship that was vitally important to me as well. And I'm interested to know if, because you both seem really lovely and both very chilled out and both kind of putting the children in at the center. So I always talk about putting the children at the center, but not in the middle. What? What were some of the challenges about co-parenting at the beginning? Andy?

Andy Morgan: 12:02

I guess a lot of people fall into the, into the trap, for whatever reasons, of maybe the parents are not as friendly as they could or should be, and pushing the children against the other parent. That was one key thing not to do. They knew we're still a family inverted commas Still a family, we're still all friendly, we're all still happy, we all still really like each other, we all still really like each other and that there's there's that there's no um animosity, um that there was no negative from parent towards the other via the kids. You know that was a key thing not not to do, because that that really is damaging for them, really is. I mean, just slightly off subject.

Andy Morgan: 12:47

We know people that have had parents that they're ages to us. They've had parents that stayed together for the kids in inverted commas I guess and they've been damaged long-term and they would freely say that and tell us that. So that was really a key thing to take away in the decision to divorce and everything is around around the children, of course, to make sure they're happy and sane. They were very young when we did um split up, as kate said, very young. So for them they especially um 18 months old and four, four year old just about vaguely remembers that I lived in the house, but not really so. This is their norm, which you know. That's a bonus or not? Um, because some children, obviously a bit older, they remember the marital home and then how it is afterwards, but for us they don't remember anything prior to there, which may be I don't know if you call it a bonus or not, but it is a good thing and they so far seem okay, saying decent children in.

Andy Morgan: 14:00

in growing up, the teenage years might be slightly different maybe not you never know, and they, they can be different children when they're with myself or with kate. They really are the things that they can or can't say to one parent or the other, being that they're males, I'm a male, etc. You know that I'm trying to think of of no negatives, but positives for them, and I think that's a positive, like that we spoke between ourselves, and they are slightly different children when they're with me or or with with Kate, but that I think that helps them grow.

Catherine Morgan: 14:40

Ask different questions to different people and we talk about that, don't we? We compare notes about that, which is important. You know, have you, have you had this discussion or what are you hearing? So we're still differently, but in the same way, a married couple, might you know your children will have different relationships with mum versus dad, and that that's normal, I think absolutely.

Tamsin Caine: 15:04

When there are big decisions to be made and and probably talking about more about your 12 year old than your nine year old, because I'm figuring that your 12 year old's probably getting to the point where they're going to be pushing boundaries and and so on when there are decisions about what they are and aren't allowed to do, are those decisions that you both make together, or do you make, catherine? Do you make decisions about what they can and can't do when they're at yours and Andy makes the ones that feel right for him when they're at his? How do you navigate that?

Catherine Morgan: 15:42

I think we probably have talked about the big thing like when might they have a phone? I think we haven't talked about this before. I think we're both on the same path there and I would it. That's where I think it would create friction for a child if they can do one thing really differently to with the other parent, because that confuses the child. So I don't know, but that, innately to me, would be a point where I'd have to either give and share the same view as as Andy, to be consistent or at least talk about it with the children altogether.

Catherine Morgan: 16:18

And we have times where we are all together, you know sort of picking up and handing back at the weekends and things like that. It's come in, let's have a meal, let's chat. It's not a two minute drop off, oh, that's lovely. So there's always time for things like that. And we have together had a chat with our 12 year old about incidents or the internet or anything and everything.

Catherine Morgan: 16:39

I think I'd always want to check with him, because you are raising the same child, not not because we're in a marriage, but actually we want him to grow up to be a successful man and therefore I guess we probably have quite similar views on some of those things you know, and so that that was always something I'll let Andy comment, but that we had the same view on about, you know, manners and the importance of family and swearing, and you know you name it. I think we are still quite similar in that regard, so that there haven't been so far too many. I can't think of any, you know, like massive points of difference. But I can see that in other divorced families that's where maybe it is painful and then it's reinforced by the parents saying, well, your father wouldn't xyz, or we'll go and do you know, and referring to that difference of the parents opinion can be the source of pain for the children.

Andy Morgan: 17:40

We I don't think we've we've had that yeah, no, no, big differences on the big things, really. No, we're quite aligned on on just all of those, which is quite lucky. If we're not, we have a good talk through it anyway and put each other's points of view forward and and come to a decision together. Generally, yeah, there's never, never any. I'm doing this and that's it. Sorry that there's never anything like that, which is quite, quite lucky for us. One thing that the children do sometimes which is quite natural and normal is if they're with me and I say right time for bed or time for x and y, mommy, lets us stay up. Always does Okay, I'll talk to Kate and it's okay. No, not at all. So you have to watch out for that. They do try, but that's just part of their learning and pushing boundaries and learning life.

Tamsin Caine: 18:33

Do you know what you preempted? Because I was just about to ask you just that question. I remember, so I think my youngest was about 11 when we, when we split up maybe a little bit younger than that and I remember her and it. It she's not normally like this, but I she'd ask me if she could have something or if I could give her some money, or something like that, and I said absolutely no. And then she found my ex and asked him the same question I'm like you, cheeky, so-and-so and then he'd, of course, rung me and gone this is what's happened and this is what she's asked for. And I was like, brilliant, I'm so glad you found, because I I think our co-parenting relationship is is pretty reasonable, but I don't think it's anywhere near the gold standard that you guys are, that you guys are up to, um, so yeah, that is it.

Tamsin Caine: 19:27

It's that pushing against things, isn't it? And I think, as they get older, it's those decisions that that you're trying to take of. Am I allowed to? You know, it's like you mentioned the phone. It becomes like I'll kind of go to the. I don't know. Can I go on my own to the park in the evening. Can I go into town? Can I go into the local city? And it's those sorts of things where they're sort of challenging their own independence. Really that starts to be a bit like like I'm not very comfortable about them doing it. But then they've kind of got to let the reins off a little bit, I think.

Andy Morgan: 20:05

But I think you're right another thing that's a challenge is, um, two parents, two children. You can easily take one away to do a, do a something, do something they love, um, and you have the one-to-one time. That that is a quite a big challenge. Obviously, most of the time I have both of them and, being boys, it's it's been a referee for fighting and everything else and you get to know them really well. But the best way to get to know them is is one-to-one. They are different children and that that for me is, um, I guess, a relatively rare thing, but when that does happen, that that is that is so nice. I guess that's one divorced negative, that that you know two parents, two children in the same house. That could happen so much easier.

Andy Morgan: 20:53

Um, we do do it now and again, um, especially if we think one of them may have a bit of an issue or unhappy about something. We'll talk and, okay, let's have one each and and see if we can get them to open up. When you're just one on one, I mean, that's that's, I guess, the golden time, maybe, if you want to call it that. You know that that is a challenge as well to do that, because you know, when kate doesn't have the children. She has other things she wants and needs to do in her free time. So that is a challenge piece, but something we do, overcome when we need, when we need to.

Tamsin Caine: 21:24

Yeah I like that. That's. That's a really good idea because, you're right, it is difficult, it's, it's a, I guess, much so. My children live full-time with me and and it is about kind of your finding that you get the time as a person who lives with them most of the time like if they're off at a party or whatever you get to spend time with one-on-one. But it's much more difficult for the I'm going to say dad in this instance, when they're not, you know they're with you for a relatively short amount of time and you have them both at the same time. Finding that one-on-one time must be it must be much more difficult but I like. I like the fact that there's the fluidity of being able to do that if it feels right for the boys.

Catherine Morgan: 22:14

That's really cool and you sometimes see people turning themselves inside out because it's their weekend or it's not their weekend. I'm not saying I feel smug, but the obvious thing is then surely, well, then you put down your official schedule and you break it because the children need something different. So, as Andy's saying, you know, it's OK, I'll do this and you do that with that one. And I think as people get more into a new life, you get further away from that flexibility. Maybe, in particular if there's then new partners or new children, or you lose that thread, I think. And maybe we're just lucky as well as we work hard to keep saying, well, what do they need? Ok, well, you take this one and I'll do that, you know. And to heck with the official weekends. Um, I think we we say that a lot not sure that's a lot, catherine.

Tamsin Caine: 23:06

It feels like it's a very carefully considered and um and planned out situation that you, that you're in, and and it you know it's. It's really. It's really lovely to hear about um. I'm interested in um whether and um. I can't imagine that this has ever been the case, but has there ever been a situation where I, either of them, have said no, don't want to go this weekend or this Wednesday? Um, I want to be in my house with my playstation and go on Minecraft for the whole weekend rather than going? I'll then go and see daddy and if so, how have you dealt with that situation?

Andy Morgan: 23:52

go on, andy well, it's for you to answer really, because I'm sure you get that more than I do they. They're at your house much more than mine, and that's their home, that's what they're used to. They've got most of their own things there, that's their comfort zone, and so when they come to mine, I'm sure there must be times when they say no, I don't really want to go and it's boring there, or this and that or whatever they give. I know sometimes you've said that to me.

Catherine Morgan: 24:29

If it, if it happens too frequently so I can understand it and adjust. But I'm sure it happens more to you, kate, than it does does to me. I think, um, if say one of them's not, well, they typically might want to be with me and that's not a measure of how Andy cares for them when they're sick. It's just, let's say, you're into like day three of an illness and then it's daddy's night, well, there might be resistance because they're still wanting to just curl up in in the bed and, you know, carry on being ill. That's, that's just an inevitable. Um. I think we've probably, looking back, been.

Catherine Morgan: 24:54

I'm quite a tech phobe. Andy has lots of great games and driving stuff, and they're boys. So daddy's house is full of exciting things and it might be smaller, but there's a heck of a lot to do there and it's always fun and they have very clear boundaries as well. So I think and I hope that when they are there they know exactly what's involved, they know what they can do. There aren't, there aren't too many variables. I wouldn't say there's one better house or not, or there's one strict parent. There's what I mean. Actually I probably would they say Andy's much stricter, but I mean, but there's a lot of fun there, and and they're boys. And again, maybe this is the fact of your personal situation. You know I'm the only female, so I need advice on how to help them become young men. And there he is, their dad. He's right there. So of course I'm going to be drawing on that and talking, and so that's beyond the topic. But you know, it's just a need for us to carry on being closely in touch about our sons and you know, there's probably times when they prefer him to me, but they would anyway, don't all children?

Catherine Morgan: 26:09

I often find myself, and I grew up in a very happy childhood. My parents were together well into my teens and I look back and just think I had a massively different relationship with my mom and my dad and I fought bitterly with one and not with the other, and I thought one was very strict and one was a walk over. And they happen to be in the same house, but they, they're two different people and the older you get and when you become a parent yourself, you see the flaws and the wonders of your parents. No one gives you a rule book, and so that's how I try and judge. You know, how will they judge us? Well, it was the first time that we were a mum or a dad and and we tried to put them first.

Tamsin Caine: 26:51

I know absolutely, andy. If you were to rewind things going back to when you first split up, is there anything and we're only talking about co-parenting, not anything else is there anything that you would change about how you set up the co-parenting relationship or anything you would change about that process?

Andy Morgan: 27:19

Not that I can think of off the top of my head. I mean, I moved close. I didn't move far away, which was a definite to be involved in their lives as much as I could. I see them as much as I can. Um, well, it's never as much as you'd like to, but more than enough, and it's fluid and it's it's. It's more than just the set times and days. What would I have done differently? Um, I guess the ideal is not to get divorced at all happy family, but that that that wasn't the the route we took. We took the route we did because we thought it's the best for everyone, not just in a selfish way, but for the four of us. I guess I can't think of anything I would have done differently, to be honest.

Catherine Morgan: 28:05

Okay, maybe you've got any thoughts, but I know I can think while you talk oh, I mean, I think of the magic spreadsheet that we have like behind the scenes. We have a spreadsheet of where we are and holidays and anything that gets mapped out or inset days. You know we look ahead as far as we can as to when, like, if it's Andy's weekend and it's an inset day, then that's the Friday. If there's a bank holiday, well then it's. If you've got them that weekend, then that's also the Monday, just, and we're both very organized people. So, again, it just works like that. But we have a spreadsheet every year. You know we roll it forward.

Catherine Morgan: 28:38

I could probably know officially what I'm doing in November in 2025, because it's just yours, mine, yours, mine, yours, mine. It's not, it's just the benefit of Excel, but there's flexibility to change all that. You know, with big events we need. But it works like that. The boys know it, it, we know it, so it's it's like a little system. I suppose that we we've stuck to um and it's getting things like that in place and just putting them first, because you can spend a huge amount of time and energy and money and emotion dealing with your own relationship and it's a game changer once you have kids, you've brought lives into the world and you know whatever's happened between you. There's other humans that need to be managed and to try and not, you know raise people that are broken and damaged and look back at their childhood rather than look forward into what they're going to do.

Tamsin Caine: 29:48

Yeah, it's important to give it a thought. That sounds dark? No, not at all. When you, um, when you were going through the process of getting divorced, did you have other than your amazing sounding spreadsheet? Did you have a parenting plan? Because I know this is something that a lot of divorce coaches talk about putting into place a parenting plan and I kind of. It's always struck me that putting into a parent, putting a parenting plan in place when the children are 18 months and four in your case, that things are going to change about what's in there, like as they get older and older, and I just wondered if it was something that you'd put in place.

Andy Morgan: 30:23

Not officially. No, I think if circumstances between us were different, not as close or friendly, then something official would need to be put in place, whatever they have in a standard parenting plan. But no, nothing official. Just we would initially, okay, let's see how it goes with the every other weekend and every Wednesday, let's see how that pans out for us in our lives, and especially the kids lives, and how, how they adapt to that, how happy or unhappy they are with it, and go from there and obviously we could change it whenever we wished. So there was, there was no official parenting plan. I don't even know what would be in, be in one, you know, to be honest, but being needed in, in, in in a situation where people are not so friendly, talkative, open, etc.

Tamsin Caine: 31:10

Obviously it'd be needed then for sure yeah, I think you're right, I think it. I can see it not really being needed between the two of you, but I think if there's certainly an animosity or differences of opinion or, you know, dealing with certain situations, it probably is needed. But, um, yeah, I like, I like your spreadsheet. That all sounds good.

Catherine Morgan: 31:37

If also if you know money is really tight and that's often the way when you've got to create two homes, you know, maybe perhaps a lot of families really have to kind of say, right, who will? Who will buy the uniform or who will buy the football kit? Or you know, I can see you almost maybe need a statement of intent or something which which we haven't between us, and I'm aware of that as well. I think you know we're probably fortunate, being in an affluent part of the country. You know we managed to get our divorce done, and so that hasn't been a real problem for us, but it might well be for lots of families, and so it's about having clarity.

Catherine Morgan: 32:15

Guess up front, and if you need, as well as your own financial settlement, if you need lots of detail about paying for children's things, then you know everything and anything you can write down and using good advisors and solicitors and so on to yeah, maybe there's content in a plan like that or chapter headings that can help parents who are newly divorced to think you might not know it now, but in a few years you're going to need X and Y, because that's just the fact that none of us quite know what we're heading into as parents. I mean, ours were at nursery and it was quite regimented, so that was the routine. We weren't really setting it. Our kids were in a, they were in the routine, they were in and, and then infant school and school. You know so.

Andy Morgan: 33:03

But yeah, I can see the processes would be good for some families when they start as amicable as everything sounds, that there are still points where you're at loggerheads and you're maybe not enemies, but there are points where you're battling against each other. The financials is one, of course, and that will be for every divorce. I guess the financials were one. The other one was something we didn't think about until I physically moved out, which was all the possessions in the house, who has what? That was something that until I moved out out, we didn't discuss and think about. So then we had the discussion about that. I want this, I want that, but they I think, especially the financials, they were the two, um hardest parts. And I just remember, when we finished the financial chats between us, um, we had a hug and a cuddle and said, right, that's done now let's move on. We're friends again, carry on, let's do everything, everything as we should for the kids and move on and get this done as smoothly as we can.

Andy Morgan: 34:05

And obviously that was the introduction of the children to the idea of daddy's not here anymore and there's another house. Um, that was a challenge on on the kit side not, not too big, I mean, excuse me, kate would come, come to my house, obviously, before the children saw it, um, got comfortable with it, what was here, how it was, and then first few times kate would come with the children, so they didn't see it as a mental mummies and daddies, it's every everybody's. And, as Kate said, when I dropped them off I stayed out for a while, or I pop in on an evening from nearby, so they don't see it as a differentiation, differentiation or a divide. They see it as everything is everybody's that's a really good point.

Catherine Morgan: 34:54

I thought about that physicality of the place, as in, you know, andy's welcome in my house. I'm welcoming his. I sat my exams at his. He had a better internet so I went around to do some of my exams with it. You know, like it's a measure of that, I would hate the boys to feel that there's a place that mummy can't go or that daddy can't come. That again, that just seems really sad. If that was the case, because they're both places that they both go, um, I remember a bit of, like, you know, making sure that we had enough pants and socks at daddy's and that sort of just. It's extra work. You have to think ahead and be planned and in some cases just have two of everything, which costs more money, but it's less so as they get older because they manage themselves a bit more. They know they need to take their you know, tennis racket or football shirt, you know. Otherwise they're the ones that lose out and that's just part of teaching them to grow up. So it's got easier over the years.

Tamsin Caine: 35:52

Absolutely on the subject of finances, andy I'm, I'm interested in how you navigate, not spoiling them when you see them, perhaps less than you. I mean, in another world. We see our children every day, so in it, do you, do you manage to not spoil them rotten and how do you manage that?

Andy Morgan: 36:17

um, I guess I do because I see them regularly. So it's not a case of I see them once a month. I've got to treat them so they like me and bond with me the bribes, I guess. So it's not quite like that, because I see them quite often. Um, they always want everything, as all children do, and I don't just buy them things because they ask and beg 50 times and just to shut them up.

Andy Morgan: 36:42

I do try and make them learn things in life. So if they want football cards, if they want to to do an x and y, okay, no problem. What are you going to do for me? What, what? What are you going to do to earn? What are you going to do to earn that? Right? So they would sweep somewhere, cut the grass and whatever else. So I don't see myself as a walkover there, if you know what I mean, and I don't feel I have to shower them with money and gifts to get them to like me, because I do see them regularly. I think maybe if I didn't see them as much, it may be a slightly different story, I think.

Catherine Morgan: 37:20

But no, it's. Yeah, andy's secret weapon is chocolate Darth Vader's. He has a like an ice tray that you and I might fill with water, but he fills with dairy milk and they're in the shape of Darth Vader and the only thing that they consistently ask for is if daddy's coming has, has he got any chocolate Darth Vader's? Where are the chocolate Darth Vader's? And that's a very cheap but but you know simple tool to make children very happy. It works.

Tamsin Caine: 37:47

a treat amazing, amazing, how. How do you so? Again, kind of on the on the kind of gifting and spoiling, my experience is that where there's the parents live in different houses, they get double at Christmas and for birthdays. How?

Andy Morgan: 38:09

do you?

Tamsin Caine: 38:09

manage that.

Andy Morgan: 38:11

Sometimes, if they want a large present, we would club together a bike or something that's quite expensive. We would club together a bike or something that's that's quite expensive, we would club together. But other other times, I mean generally that they do get two sets of presents, to be honest, um, two sets of holidays, I mean that is a bonus, big bonus from their point of view. But we do we talk between ourselves to make sure either side of our families don't duplicate on on what we, we do buy. Then we talk about things they want, the value of things. How do we share the load and not duplicate and not over overindulging like I guess, yeah, yeah oh, I'm glad there's some.

Catherine Morgan: 38:51

There's some things that you guys do that normal co-parents do I I think also it's only the present from mum and dad, because I mean the grandparents on Andy's side, there's grandparents on my side. They would all probably have bought the children presents anyway. So it's, it's not double everything. We just try and coordinate what each of us are buying and stocking fillers and things like that, um, and we try and have a day at Christmas where we're together and we have. You know, my mother-in-law is still my mother-in-law and I love her dearly and I don't want her to not see the children, you know so. So we do, we do a lot of Christmas, but I guess that does require you to get on with each other, um the point.

Andy Morgan: 39:35

Yeah, christmas is always a discussion point. We've got into a good rhythm which is is the same just about every year. So I like to be with them christmas eve, christmas day morning. So what we generally do it is I would would go to their main house and be with them for that period and then Kate would take them away to see her family Christmas day afternoon, boxing day, and then I would take them back and then take them to see my family for the rest of the break. So we have a quite a good fluid piece there. I can see where for others that would be always the challenge of I want them Christmas day, now I want them Christmas day. We're lucky we don't don't have that when I guess if that was the case we would maybe alternate each year.

Tamsin Caine: 40:24

We haven't got to that case at that point, luckily yeah, it's a different, difficult one to navigate that we, we um alternate, I like. I like having them Christmas, even Christmas day morning. For me, especially when they're little, those are their little faces on Christmas morning, it's just like something you can't beat. But I know my ex appreciates that as well. So we've always said alternate Christmas Eve night and Christmas morning and then switch around at kind of lunchtime and then the other person has them for the rest of Christmas day. So you either get Christmas dinner or you get Christmas morning and I kind of think, yeah, if you can't spend it together, that is one way of you know making sure that you, you both benefit at least some years from that.

Catherine Morgan: 41:15

So I think they'd also be sad if, if they you know, there'll be times when we're doing something and the boys will say what about daddy? So you know that, and that doesn't mean, can daddy come and we're doing it before again, but it means that you know they're they're keen to know what daddy's doing. So that's again another reason to not have long periods of time where you've, you know, excluded daddy, or vice versa, I think, because they are aware absolutely think of times of negatives over the years of being divorced.

Andy Morgan: 41:49

So if I'm doing something with them, that and they're having just an amazing time, I think oh, it'd be great if their mum could see this as well that that's a bit of a slight sad point, or if you're on holiday, um, the same sort of theory they're having a great time, lovely timing, oh, I wish someone could see this.

Andy Morgan: 42:05

But we do a lot of these days. It's great with phones and cameras, video and photos, and if I'm away with them the weekend, I'll send them to kate, just so she can see what we're up to, what's going on, what we're doing, how happy they are, etc. So that that helps cover it, I guess. Yeah, that is one one negative of being separate, of course.

Tamsin Caine: 42:25

Yeah oh, that's lovely. I like that. That's really cool. We have been talking for ages and, sadly, are coming to the end of our time together.

Andy Morgan: 42:35

I just wondered if there was any any final piece of advice that either of you have for our listeners yeah, there's one, one thing that I find being the person that doesn't have them the most so generally it's the, it's the dad that has this is say, I'll have them from a friday afternoon evening onwards. I'm used to living on my own, they're used to living with Kate. There's not all the time, but sometimes on a Friday evening. There's an adjustment period both for myself and for them, um and so there's arguments, wouldn't say there's tension, but there's an adjustment period where you get used to each other again. They get used to the way I am, I get used to the way they are, um, not frosty, not odd, but just just something to to be aware of. And then the Saturday onwards it is it's great, we're all in the same wavelength and everything's good. So, but that's another just thing to think about for the person that doesn't have them too often or as often good advice.

Tamsin Caine: 43:38

I like that anything from you, catherine just put them at the center.

Catherine Morgan: 43:44

You know, assuming you wanted children in the first place, they are, and I say this at least once a week to someone in business or a parent at school or a friend divorcing. I always say they're the best thing that came out of the years that we had together. So you know what's not to treasure and you know so.

Tamsin Caine: 44:04

Yeah, oh, thank you so much. That's such a lovely, lovely point to finish on. Thank you ever so much for joining me. I've really enjoyed that conversation and I just think it's going to be so incredibly useful for so many people. And you know, I'm sure nobody ever tells you this, but you're doing an amazing job. And, yeah, just my heart goes out to both of you for doing such a great job and I think many people get told as parents, that we're doing a good job. But, as you said before, there's no rule book and it's fantastic, so you thanks very much, hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the smart divorce podcast.

Tamsin Caine: 44:51

If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, www. smartdivorce. co. uk. Also, if you are listening on apple podcasts or on spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a facebook group now. It's called separation, divorce and dissolution uk. Please do go on to facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.