The Smart Divorce Podcast

Domestic Abuse - Power Imbalances and How to Manage Them in Divorce

• Season 10 • Episode 3

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Unlock the secrets to navigating the often complex and challenging terrain of divorce with insights from our esteemed guest, Ceri Griffiths, a divorce financial planner. Discover how power imbalances, especially when one partner possesses greater financial knowledge or negotiation skills, can create significant disadvantages during divorce. Ceri provides invaluable tips on recognizing these imbalances and offers strategies to equip both parties with the tools needed to make informed decisions. Our discussion underscores the urgent need for legal systems to evolve and address economic abuse and coercive control, with a sneak peek into an upcoming report by Resolution.

Ceri Griffiths

What I Stand For
It's my intention to help divorcing women know how to use their financial settlement to create financial well-being and a more rewarding life.  I am passionate about this because I believe that financial services has historically been male focused and has marginalised so many women by focusing on growth and products.  This means they often feel vulnerable and unprepared at a time when they have to make some of the biggest financial decisions of their lives.  I feel it is vital that we level the playing field for women and ensure they have as equal access to expertise as their ex, and that financial services speaks to them in a way that is equally inspiring and motivational.  I am on a mission to empower women to become financial capable and to realise that money self-care is the ultimate self-care. They can make their money work for them and achieve peace of mind and a financial plan for a post-divorce life they will love.

Website

Tamsin Caine

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS

Chartered Financial Planner

Smart Divorce Ltd

Smart Divorce

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/


To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.


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Tamsin Caine:

Welcome to series 10 of the Smart Divorce Podcast. During this series, we're going to be speaking about the difficult subject of domestic abuse. Unfortunately, during my work, I come across people who are victim survivors of domestic abuse on a far too regular basis, so we're going to be talking to those who have survived themselves, to professionals working in this area, to solicitors, to hopefully help you to find the right support if you're in that situation. This is an issue that's not going away. So if you're going through this or you know anybody who is, I really hope this series helped you. Thanks for listening.

Tamsin Caine:

I am very happy to be joined again on the podcast by the lovely Ceri Griffiths, who's a fabulous friend of mine, and she is also a divorce financial planner, but she works exclusively with women who are divorcing millionaires. So I'm going to let her tell you a lot more about herself, because she's award-winning. She is an absolute superstar in this area. So thank you for joining me, Ceri, and do you want to tell our audience a little bit more about you and what you do?

Ceri Griffiths:

oh, thank you for having me on and thank you for the lovely introduction and just thank you for everything you do in this space. I love how much support that you give to everybody watching, so big, big advocate of yours as well, Tam. So, talking about me and our friendship actually, because, Tam, you are a big reason that I have friends in this space and you started all, so I'm so, so grateful for that um, but let's talk about um, a little bit about me and let's talk a little bit about what I do. So, yeah, I work exclusively with women who are divorcing millionaires and specifically where there's a power imbalance, that's where I really um feel that I add the most value and make the most difference to my clients.

Ceri Griffiths:

So I'll typically work with clients where their ex is in a really high-flying role like a CEO or private equity manager, and they are feeling that there is an imbalance and there's some fear and some worry around that. I hold narcissism qualifications, financial abuse qualifications and I'm part of a working party led by Resolution on economic abuse and the impact it has on financial remedy proceedings, and that is something that I have been part of now to help create some more awareness around how these things specifically show up during divorce and trying to create some change from the top level about how the legal proceedings actually recognise and adapt to what we now are clearer on than previously, because economic abuse, coercive control weren't necessarily things that we massively understood and as we understand them more, it's about adapting and changing and creating more awareness of that.

Ceri Griffiths:

Tamsin Caine ,

Ceri Griffiths:

Yeah,. We've had Olivia Pearcey Piercy already in this series, so she talks a fair bit about the work that your committee are doing and about the report that, as we're recording, this has not been released and it's still top secret but by the time this episode comes out, it will be available and it'll be in the show notes of Olivia's episode.

Ceri Griffiths:

If you want to go back and have a look at that, that would be brilliant. And Olivia does talk a bit about the report, although not in detail because, as I say, it's all top secret, as we're talking today. So we're going to talk a bit about the power imbalances that you were talking about before. So, in terms of the power imbalances, what do they look like in terms of relationships and how they show themselves in divorce?

Ceri Griffiths:

Ceri Griffiths very

Ceri Griffiths:

It's very and each couple will have their own personal dynamic and sometimes there'll be a power imbalance, but a really natural, normal one that can be easily resolved through some education. And you know, as we develop our relationships, it is common for one party to take over things that they are stronger in prefer and another party to have handle other parts. So within marriages, a power imbalance often does occur in a really normal, natural, nothing to be scared about way. But there are times when that actually evolves into a place where there is a real disadvantage to one party during the marriage and then as that marriage is dissolved and as they try to rebuild their new lives. And how it shows up is very much a subtle layering of different elements.

Ceri Griffiths:

And what I would say is that my clients don't phone me up saying there's a power imbalance in my marriage and I would like your help. You know it's not necessarily at the forefront of their minds, so what they are thinking and what they are feeling is outmatched partner or their former partner has more knowledge, more experience, more confidence, not just on money but also on negotiations and just in being in a fairly corporate scenario, which a divorce is. You know, essentially it's a contract that we're dissolving and creating a new contract at the end of, and so there's this sense of being outmatched and there's this sense of being very ill-equipped and unprepared. So they create the feelings that my clients typically have are fear, worry and lack of ability, and they are seeking some ways to be able to make some decisions and feel that they have a line of sight on the choices that are being asked to make

Ceri Griffiths:

Tamsin Caine

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, no, I think I think that and that doesn't just occur in I. I know .. you specialize in working with, with millionaires and and very wealthy couples, um, but these power imbalances can, can, can occur in lots of different types of relationships and, you know, it's not always the super wealthy. There are power imbalances in other types of relationships as well. I'm interested in the power imbalance that you for. For me I kind of feel power imbalance that is like I don't feel that that sounds like a good thing at any point in the, at any point in any relationship, and I'm sort of interested that you kind of feel that that can be quite normal and natural. I'm interested to sort of explore that a little bit, because it feels like power imbalance feels to me?

Ceri Griffiths:

yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think what is important is that we don't scare people into thinking that there's something in their marriage that is wrong because one party is managing the money and the other party is not necessarily involved in that side of things. Now I strongly believe that everybody should understand how money works, understand what they've got, understand what they owe and know what their life, you know their plan looks like. But it is still a really common thing to happen, and that doesn't mean that something is wrong, and so that's the point that I was making is that don't panic if you don't feel that you understand or know all of those things. It doesn't mean that there is economic abuse.

Ceri Griffiths:

That imbalance is a really common thing. That happens. We play to strengths, I think, particularly when you have young children and there are so many plates that are being spun. A lot of the time it's just around efficiencies and trying to keep the household running, when you are doing so many different things and there are times and spaces as your children grow for that dynamic to change. And I encourage people to change that dynamic, because it does mean that you are more likely to feel confident and to feel prepared as your marriage progresses if you are also involved in those decisions and you can bring a lot to the table. You know that money is not just about performance and growth, and different perspectives on how money should be treated is a really important part of your financial reviews with your financial planner. So for those of you who do have financial planners or partners have financial planners you know very much should be a roundtable group of you talking about what does the money need and how is it going to look, and not just how has it performed over the last year.

Tamsin Caine:

Absolutely with you on that. I think you're spot on. You know, it's totally normal for one person to look after the money. Ideally, both are involved and, as you say, craig, if there's a financial planner, you should both be seeing them. It should not be one person's financial planner. It's something we insist on when we work with couples. I think it's the word power that makes me go oh no, that's bad, because if somebody's using their skills and knowledge and so on to create a power imbalance and it feels like a power imbalance, I think for me that's that's where there's an issue and if, if you feel that it's a, it's being used as power, that's probably the time to address. Actually, can you tell me about the money, where it is, what we've got because, and then if there's a reluctant to do that, then maybe there might be.

Ceri Griffiths:

yeah, I agree with you, Tam, absolutely it's knowledge im balance rather than a power imbalance that I'm describing, and the power imbalance comes as that dynamic gets deeper and as the economic abuse comes to light.

Ceri Griffiths:

for sure,

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, and I think that's that's the issue that you're dealing with regularly with your divorcing clients and and in the same with me, you know it's it is this having a control over the other person, having power over the other person, having power over the other person and using that to destroy their confidence, to destroy their ability to negotiate on behalf of themselves in that situation. So talk to me about how you help, because I can. You know if you, if you're feeling I mean you're all everybody is fearful in divorce. You know divorce creates fear. Naturally, if you're also experiencing this power, imbalance and somebody else having control over you, I can only imagine what those people are going through. So so how do you help? Where do you start?

Ceri Griffiths:

yeah, so I have a four-step process called wise. It's a methodology that is specifically designed to help ensure that the people who are feeling outmatched and ill-equipped are able to get back onto a level playing field. Um, the work that I'm doing is is financial planning. There's an element of it feeling like coaching, but I think, alongside what you and I do, tam, we also need to be really mindful that the role that divorce coaches play and how important that is when we've got this paradigm as well. Um, and so a lot of what I'm doing is also linking up with their divorce coach so that they have this arms around them approach of of having all elements supporting them, so that they can get back to a place where they can negotiate and they do understand and they can make some decisions. So, in terms of why, the first one is wellness and that's making sure that there is an understanding of everything that is on the table, that there is nothing that seems obscure or isn't transparent. And for my clients, that's a bit of a journey, because how high net worth individuals earn is not always transparent. It is complex and even for the most financially literate people, it's a difficult thing to negotiate and understand and navigate and understand that mean. So that first part is very much linked in with what the legal team are doing and getting a really clear set of disclosure, knowing what the disclosure means, asking the right questions. So we get to a point where we're like, ok, we understand the status quo and the client really understands the status quo, the status quo and the client really understands the status quo.

Ceri Griffiths:

The second part is intent, and this is about making sure that there is some space created for my client to think about what a full and beautiful life looks like for her and to really gain some depth behind that. So it isn't just I want to keep the house, I want to keep things stable for the children, that we get beyond those initial reactive statements and to a place where she is able to picture herself living her best life. And I think it's a really. For me, it's one of the most rewarding parts, because what we tend to uncover is that it isn't about the material things. Because what we tend to uncover is that it isn't about the material things and I think, where you have had a lot of luck for a lot of wealth, it also gives you perspective on what you truly value, and so we spend a lot of time in that intent phase and ultimately we reduce some costings from now until age 100. But just for me and the client, we don't use them in the legal proceedings.

Ceri Griffiths:

From now to age 100, they change when the children leave home. They change in early retirement, late retirement and we really get a sense of how much life is going to cost in the, in the way that she's playing out, in the way that she's thinking and she's dreaming. It's a space that she can be really honest because she's not having to think strategically about well, if I position I need this much, then they might negotiate me down. It's just a really honest space, her and I and we're working out what does that actually cost? And that intense phase then gives us a benchmark and when we get to the next stage, which is stress test, what we're doing in stress test is we are looking at any proposals that her legal team or his legal team might make or that they might create a mediation or round table, and we're seeing how that plays against her ideal life, seeing where the gaps are, we're seeing where we could be creative, we're seeing if it's enough and what that allows the client to do is actually make decisions with context, decide to prioritise what is important to them. You know we don't always find that our clients are looking for the biggest settlement. What they're looking for is a settlement that works in an amicable end, and so it gives her that ability to say yeah, I'll accept that, even if her legal team are saying you could get so much more. What it does is allow her to make a choice of all the things that are important to her about this separation yes, the money is important, but maybe the relationship with that ex is important, maybe the relationship with their dad and her viewpoints on that are important. It allows her to weigh up all of those things and make those decisions. We do it using cashflow forecasting, so it's a tool that allows us to show you visually what could happen and then see if there are some solutions that we can come up with or if there is enough.

Ceri Griffiths:

And then the last stage is Evolve and in and in evolve, we are preparing clients to make the financial decisions that they need to. So this stage is about education around how charges work on investments, how investments work in general, the different varieties you know, sustainable investing all the things that you would have if you had been in that world during your marriage. But because you haven't, because you haven been in that world during your marriage, but because you haven't, because you haven't had that exposure, it's just preparing you because my clients are going to get a big lump sum and so when they get 2 million land in their bank account, it's like, okay, here's all the stuff that you need to know to make a decision so that you know how to move forward with that. So that's what I do, so that's the process, that's the methodology, but essentially what I do. So that's the process, that's the methodology, but essentially you know what we do, tam is, we are that sounding board for our clients, aren't we?

Ceri Griffiths:

We are the people that is a that are able to hold a really safe space to listen and, I think, to really hear our clients deeply, which they don't get often in their legal meetings because obviously they're timed and there's so many other things that need to become decisions made. So we give them that space to think deeply, be heard, be understood, to soundboard with them, to challenge with them. You know, I think a really big thing that I do for my clients is actually help them see whether the decisions they're making are in line with what we've worked out. Their values are in the intent phase and if they're not, actually say to them well, why are you now saying this? What is it that's happening? Is this an emotional response? Does this actually links for what you want and that and kind of create that space, um, from an economic abuse point of view?

Ceri Griffiths:

So my clients very much are looking to have an expert on their side because they are feeling vulnerable and that's not a word they would use, but they are feeling disadvantaged and so from an economic abuse point of view, they might not have identified as economic abuse, we might never use that word. I probably will speak about it with their legal team and, you know, kind of give them a heads up on things that happened. But we would navigate that and decide how that's going to progress. But I will be that person by her side so that every step of the way, she feels empowered and able to position what she needs and why and to accept what is happening without regret, without thinking um that that he has in any way manipulated the situation, and that's good for both parties. That means that both parties can move on comfortable and happy that what they've come to is is the right thing for them as a couple

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, yeah, no, absolutely so.

Tamsin Caine:

Do you think that sometimes your clients come to you not aware, like aware that they're not feeling as strong as the other party, that there might be a power imbalance? But that word abuse I know you said you don't necessarily use it with your clients and and the same here, unless they come to me with it. But do you think they've already uncovered that there is that? Or do you see the red flags and flag it with the legal team and perhaps there's not actually the awareness there?

Ceri Griffiths:

I think there's a mix, absolutely there's a mix of people who who have been doing some research and trying to understand what's happened and by the time they come to me, they're already aware of some of the red flags. We might uncover more things that they hadn't noticed were unusual. And then there are those who just have a sense that something isn't right and they can't put their finger on it. You know so. For example, I've got a client that I spoke to this week and they are separated but they're still living together in the home. The income is around 20,000 a month, so it's. I know that's not our typical, you know population don't end, but but in this scenario it's important to point that out. So the income is £20,000 a month and the relationship has been failing for a period of time and she needs to move out for a number of reasons. She needs to move out, he's going to stay in the family home and he is proposing that she has £1,500 a month to rent and to live on. And so immediately there's this sense oh, ok, from £20,000, why £1,500? How does that work? Kind of unpicking that, and her legal team will take that forward.

Ceri Griffiths:

But what we uncovered and what we've been uncovering during this picture is that she had no money of her own, but she did. At one point, she had her own flat at one point and when the flat sold, all the money got intermingled and it's you can just see these gradual things that have happened. That means that she lost financial independence, and it's only when we're kind of black and white, putting it down and saying, okay, so where is this, where is that, where does your money, money go? And so all of her income goes into a joint account that he sees her spending um, and there is no privacy, there is no um ability for her to get expertise, to get the assistance that she needs, without it being flagged to him. And so while I am not sitting there because I think one of the difficulties we've got if I sit there and say this is economic abuse I could put like a real bomb into that separation. You know, something that maybe is ticking along fairly amicably could blow up and that could have a huge number of knock-on effects. But I also need to prepare her and position her so that she understands the bigger picture.

Ceri Griffiths:

And what tends to happen is when a client is downloading to you and they're saying it out loud in one space, like in one period of time, the red flags become apparent to them, like they seem to self-identify themselves, and then we just work through.

Ceri Griffiths:

How does this look and what does this mean?

Ceri Griffiths:

And I think one of the biggest impacts that economic or financial abuse has is self-worth and self-confidence, because, alongside having no access to funds or independent access to funds, is a sense that you are not good with money, that you are not worthy of money, that you don't have the same ability as somebody else, and also a lack of a network and a lack of an ability to rebuild your financial worth because of the circumstances that lead you to to have this.

Ceri Griffiths:

So it's really typical for women to find themselves in the high net worth space, specifically find themselves not in work. Often they are having really successful careers and university educated, really really doing well. They agree that actually they're going to focus on his career because it involves travel, it involves an awful lot for somebody to get to a CEO level of kind of within a corporation and that means that they over time lose any connections, any network they have and it's really hard after 20 years of not being in that space to walk back into it years I've not been in that space to walk back into it. So there is a real sense of um not being able to pick yourself back up, and that's frightening.

Tamsin Caine:

Yeah, absolutely, and to, to think about, and, and there is a level of expectation that that they will walk back in the courts, that they will be able to walk back into a career and pick up where they left off. 20 years ago I mean, 20 years ago, my mobile phone did not look like the one that's currently sat on my desk. We weren't having calls like this. The workspace is so different in that period of time and that feels like a scary thing to expect on top of all of the other things that we've talked about as well, isn't it?

Ceri Griffiths:

it is on top of, isn't it? You know, on top, yeah, the fact that you are massively in a place of grief. There's been so much ending so much and there is so much that needs to be done to rebuild these people's self-worth and self-confidence, and so walking straight back into a career that, like you say, they've been 20 years out of is a huge, huge ask, a huge ask.

Tamsin Caine:

Yeah, it's crazy. I'm interested, um, you said about um them not having independent money and it being difficult for them to therefore get the professional advice that they need, and and absolutely agree, say it all the time, unfortunately um, how, how do they then move forward from that space, because that's a really difficult position. As you've said, they need a team around them. They need a divorce coach, they may well need therapy, they need a financial planner, they absolutely need a legal team and their exes, who are the powerful CEO or whatever, are going to ensure that they have got all of those things in place. They will have the best legal team, etc. How do you deal with that?

Ceri Griffiths:

they are often, and again, I think this is a high net worth scenario.

Ceri Griffiths:

But there are often funds that they don't know are in their own name.

Ceri Griffiths:

So if their ex has been working with a financial planner, what we often uncover is that there are ISAs that they have contributed to every year in their name and they didn't necessarily know, and obviously that then becomes money that they can get their hands on and can create some freedom and a little bit of a breathing space, which is useful.

Ceri Griffiths:

There are a variety of ways my clients actually received money from their exes and I would say the most typical is that there is an amount that is paid to them into a joint or into a sole account that covers running costs, that covers kind of life etc. And it is not uncommon for my clients over time to have just gradually created a little bit of a separate fund, and so sometimes there are small amounts of money to one side. But it is often typical that my clients need to, in the first instance, meet with a lawyer who will often do it secretly, you know, no, no need for them to actually confirm anything and, and in the first instance, the first meeting without any cost, so without any audit trail and in those meetings what you can establish is how does that legal team need to be paid and litigation funding, which obviously - do they still sponsor you Tam?

Tamsin Caine:

They are and the Ampla finance do support the podcast. Yeah, absolutely.

Ceri Griffiths:

Yeah, and so litigation funding, which I'm sure you have done episodes on, are a really normal way for my clients to then access funds, and essentially the way that it works is that, looking at the potential assets in the divorce, the litigation fund, the litigation lender, will take a view on how likely they are to get a return back on lending you the money.

Ceri Griffiths:

You know how much of a risk it might be to them and with that in line, they'll put together a personalized contract for you with whatever interest they think is worth the risk, and you would pay as you draw that money down and that will give you access to a pot of money, not just for legal fees but also for lifestyle, so that you can continue during this period. There are other ways, and this is, I suppose, more of a legal question, because you can actually apply for interim maintenance. You know there can be orders put in place for certain assets to be passed to you. I see they're less common. I see litigation funding far more than the other processes and actually a big thing that does happen is friends and family, because those who have people close to them who have some wealth will often be really generous with that as well, and that can create some wiggle room and those people can get repaid at a later date as well

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, absolutely no, I think that's it.

Tamsin Caine:

I think that's a really important thing, because it is important to get advice and to get the proper advice, and sometimes people are like, well, it has to come out that joint account, I can't get that advice properly and professionally and I'm going to rely on something completely different, and the power imbalance gets even worse then, doesn't it?

Ceri Griffiths:

yeah, absolutely, and I think one of the big risks to this population the high net worth.

Ceri Griffiths:

But in general, where there's this people fighting like you get this trope that women in this situation are gold diggers. After everything that they can get, you know that they are really going to take him to the cleaners, and what I see in reality is the absolute opposite. Because of the dynamic that has built up, where they are lacking the confidence and the self-worth and the fear is there. They want to keep things amicable for the kids and they're just wanting to move on. There's a massive risk that women settle for far less than is fair and for far less than works. And that is, I think, one of the big risks of not getting advice and big risks of not getting support, not having a divorce coach alongside your financial planner so that you can have the context of what is important to you and how this actually plays out. And I think it's a really big risk in those lower net worth divorces as well, because we are often, you know, the smallest amount of money could make a life-changing difference at that point as well.

Ceri Griffiths:

And having some expertise, some strategic expertise at the right points could have such an impact

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, definitely.

Tamsin Caine:

I think that one of the things that really winds me up is that that they took me for everything I had, like no, they didn't, because that's not. If that was possible, it's not. You know, there's a, there's a, there's a um a spectrum of, of fair settlements, yes, but but nobody's taking everybody, anybody, for everything they've got. And I think there's a misunderstanding about assets and whose name they're in and therefore who they belong to, and particularly pensions, and you must see this all the time, as I do that. Well, he said I mustn't go after his pension, or she said I mustn't go after her pension. And I should add, this happens both ways. I know we're talking about women today, but but that's because Ceri specializes with in working with women, but it definitely happens both ways. Well, I work with men and women and I've seen it both ways around.

Ceri Griffiths:

But it is three times more likely to happen. Oh sorry, I was gonna say it's three times more likely to happen to women, as research shows, and one in five women will experience this type of abuse. But yeah, it does happen both ways, and obviously I only work with women.

Tamsin Caine:

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'm. I'm slightly sceptical about the stats. Only from the perspective that I think it's less likely that men will come forward. That only from the perspective that I think it's less likely that men will come forward than women will come forward. So I'm sure that the one in five women is absolutely spot on. I'm less sure about the three times as many women. I think men are really less likely to come forward just because this.

Tamsin Caine:

This feels like a, an embarrassment, and actually I see that in the women that I work with. They're they're mortified that they've let this happen and it and it's not you, you've been controlled and coerced for many, many years to get into this position. This has been a strategic, ongoing layering for years and years, and and there's not something that's shameful, but I I do think we're getting to a point where more women will be prepared to come forward than the men, because I think they feel even more shame about it. But yeah, whether we ever actually get to the bottom of the, the realistics, that's who knows. Um, but yeah, what's your, what's your thought on on the, the whole pensions thing and that, that, that don't go after thing, because that gold digger thing does kind of feel it does get thrown about it. It's something that that our clients feel isn't it.

Ceri Griffiths:

I think what's really interesting are those words so don't go after his pension, and that you know absolutely. Um, I also think there's a really interesting dynamic here around where, where adult children or, you know, late teen children are in the mix of this as well, and the stories and the fear around what they're being told. You know, I have clients whose children are saying don't go after dad's pension, why are you going after dad's pension? And there's, you know, all these complexities that come into these decisions that lead women to settle and to make decisions that aren't in their best financial interest. And I agree with you.

Ceri Griffiths:

I think as a society we don't have the understanding of what fair truly looks like. And if we think about the picture that you have around equality versus equity, where you have three people looking over a fence and there's three boxes and one person might have a higher box than the other person to all be able to look over the fence and that's equal, they're all looking over the fence. Just because their box is higher doesn't mean that they are having an advantage, and I think that is something that is quite tricky for a lot of people to get around. So how things typically transpire for me is that a client will have this sense that something's not right. You know this underlying gut feeling, maybe not have labelled it. And then their ex has said here's a spreadsheet this is everything we owe, here's everything we own. This is what 50-50 looks like. This is just like the most fair. Let's not get lawyers involved. Let's not waste our money. We can be able, we can do this nicely, and her gut feeling is something's wrong, and that's how they often find me. So I'll reach out and we'll look at the spreadsheet.

Ceri Griffiths:

And it isn't necessarily that spreadsheet is unfair. You know, if you took his logic and 50 50'd everything, okay, often there are assets that he considers purely his. You know genuinely in his heart that pension is his. Or in his heart, his long-term incentive plan is his. It doesn't even make it onto the spreadsheet. In his heart, future bonuses, even though earned while they were together, are his. It doesn't make onto that spreadsheet. But also it doesn't address the ability for them both to, in his heart, future bonuses, even though earned while they were together, are his. It doesn't make onto that spreadsheet. But also it doesn't address the ability for them both to look over the fence, the ability for them both to have an equal chance at rebuilding their post-divorce lives, and that's a real dynamic to change.

Ceri Griffiths:

That's one of the hardest things. Through divorce is to move a mindset away from what somebody thinks is fair to what actually the law is saying is fair, and that's where a lot of money gets wasted on legal fees. As much as I love our lawyer colleagues, you know that is. What tends to happen is that there is no overall direction that says this is what fairer is, and now get to the table and negotiate, understanding this and yeah, that's what I most like to change and there are pockets of solutions, of ways that you can divorce that do address those, but commonly we're not quite in a place where we we get that out on the table in the first instance, thrash it out, make sure everybody's really clear about how these things work, and then negotiate. It kind of just all gets a bit messy.

Tamsin Caine:

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And that spreadsheet quite often has valuations of things that he's decided are the values of them. So, especially with complex investments, you know you look at VCTs or EISs like, oh well, I've decided that's worth this amount. Like, you can't just decide what things are worth, and it does make it incredibly tricky, doesn't it, for negotiating.

Tamsin Caine:

My ideal would be because you said this right at the beginning and it's something that I really agree with is that marriage is a contract. This is a contract negotiation to change the contract of marriage to a contract of divorce and set all the boundaries and so on on the table. What I'd really love is, when people are getting married, that they understand what that contract means, that these assets that are going to be in this partnership because essentially that's what this is, it's a partnership those assets doesn't matter that you're there in your name or they're in your name they are still going to be marital assets and they they still form part of the assets of the partnership, and I think there's such a massive lack of understanding around that, if we could, we could change that right at the beginning, feel like it would make it easier right at the end when we're involved in trying to unpick people's mindsets.

Ceri Griffiths:

I think that would be a game changer. For sure, People go into it aware of what they've agreed on and that's yeah.

Tamsin Caine:

It'd be great, wouldn't it, it'd be great.

Tamsin Caine:

I mean that is I guess that's the idea of a prenup, or even a postnup is to get that out in the first place, and it's a shame. I know it's coming in more in the UK but it still seems to be. Even though more people are getting them, I still think it's a very small proportion of the population, proportion of the population and it feels like I had somebody say to me the other day oh, they're asking me to get a prenup and that just feels wrong and it's like no, I say this is absolutely the time to be talking about money and how, how you might divide it, because at the moment we still love each other and you're thinking in terms of this not going to be the thing, and that's a far better time to do it than than when things got wrong absolutely.

Ceri Griffiths:

Um, there's some really interesting research at their own prenups by Sharon Thompson, who's a academic at Cardiff University. Um, and I think that'd be you know, if you are going down that path, that'd be well worth reading because there are some really big risks to the same population. Um, around prenups, and getting the right advice again is just so essential so that we don't create a future imbalance through naivety and through lack of knowledge

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, absolutely no, it is.

Tamsin Caine:

It's massively important. Um, if, if you were, um, if you were talking to somebody for the for the first time, who who was feeling in this space, but they they hadn't done anything yet, so they'd come to speak to you but they hadn't separated, but it felt like things were not right in the marriage, but they also felt that they're going to get like everything thrown at them if they, if they leave or if they do anything about it. What would your advice be?

Ceri Griffiths:

So the first thing we need to be really mindful of is safety. You know that's the first thing that will be in my mind is just trying to understand and assess the safety of the situation. Um, you know, 95 of domestic abuse cases have economic abuse, and so it's being aware of of what the fallout that could be, and actually the person most likely to know what that could look like is the person sitting in front of you. They have a good idea of what triggers and what responses and how that looks. So the first thing in my mind would be safety and the next thing would would always be okay. What emotional support is this person needing?

Ceri Griffiths:

And I will typically share Instagram accounts of really good divorce coaches, narcissism coaches, so that they can go and get some research and hopefully reach out to some of these people as well and get some emotional resilience around that decision to leave as well. And then we need to think about their financial preparedness and what, if any, steps we might be able to take to create a little bit of leverage and a little bit of safety financially if they were to leave, and it's tricky depending on where their money goes into and what happens with it. So things that I have recommended to clients in the past is to, if they're, if their ex can see everything that they buy, you know, if they're in the circumstance where they just get given a credit card or they just have access to a joint account and that's it. Um, then then and this is where I think people don't really appreciate how tough things are for women in high net worth divorce. These are literally millionaires who I am saying go and buy Asda gift cards so that you can feed your kids. Should he cut off all access to money and so, on a weekly shop, they start to buy gift cards so that they then have access to some cash, access to something to able to feed themselves, their children, a little bit of emergency fund if there is the ability to. And he has less of a line of sight, so maybe they have money coming from him, but it goes into their sole account. It is about, okay, prioritizing a little bit of what they're spending, how and why, so they can again build up some sort of contingency, and then also really getting some legal advice very early on so that they can understand how they might be able to access some funding should this happen. And we talked earlier about kind of where might money come from? Friends, family, who are the people that they might be able to lean on, and ultimately just trying to understand how, in as much detail as possible, how this might play out, what he might do, and then strategically, what they could do to offset that.

Ceri Griffiths:

What that means is that often, when you are making decisions about your separation, you aren't necessarily as upfront, you don't necessarily point the finger. It's not going to be one in which you feel vindicated. You know a separation where you turn around and say you've done this and you've done this and you're awful at this and I hate you and I don't ever want to be in the same room. You know, actually, if you know that person well, there are often ways that you can position why you are separating. That makes them still feel on top and that's important. Depending on what the dynamic is.

Ceri Griffiths:

There are certain personality types and if you can be aware of those, you can create an outcome that is linked to them. So certain personality types want to be seen as the knight in shining armor, want to be seen as, you know, just the person who's just doing the best for his family. You know, you know what an absolute icon. Look how amazing they've done. And so there are ways that you can strategically make that happen, even if it just cuts you to the soul because it's. You know, it's really tough to let somebody stand on that podium and say what a brilliant job they're doing when you know the truth of what that marriage has been like, but if you can use it to your advantage. So there's all this exploration and kind of thinking about it working with narcissism coaches, working with divorce coaches, and just trying to create a strategy that's actually going to lead you to a place where you're most likely to get a good outcome. What about you, tam? Would you be doing anything different there?

Tamsin Caine:

um, I mean, some of those ideas are incredible buying gift cards just want to just never cross my mind. But I absolutely, absolutely love that, I think. I think the the only additional thing would be to get them to go and see a lawyer as well, because quite often I will meet people who haven't yet explored the legal side of things and actually I think it's important that they have that quiet conversation with a lawyer, that they start to gain an understanding of what the process might look like, what options they've got for resolving this, how are they going to be happy to be in the same room? If not, what options are there available? And I think, just exploring that, because it feels like I know we're talking about power imbalances, but knowledge is definitely power and the more you equip yourself with the knowledge of what's going to come, the less scary it might feel.

Ceri Griffiths:

I think yeah, and actually on that knowledge base I would encourage, if you're in this place, you just need to gain so much knowledge, not just about finances, but about personality types and understanding why it's not you that's so important for your own self-worth. Um, yeah, but so understanding their personality type, because there are these little windows of opportunity that we need to take and if we don't grasp them, things can really spiral

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, absolutely, and quite often you've been selected by this other person because of your lovely personality type, because you're empathetic, because of your kindness, and those people.

Tamsin Caine:

Those are the people that are chosen by other people who have controlling behaviours, who have narcissistic tendencies, and that's hard to it's hard to hear because it's hard to get your head around what you've been going through, but actually there are some positives from that perspective. Get your head around what you've been going through and it you know, but, but actually there are some positives from that perspective. It's about the person that the person that you are. Um, we're coming to the end of our chat. I'm very sad to say, because I feel like we could probably talk about this, that I was on end. Um, is there anything that you want to add to what we've said?

Ceri Griffiths:

I really enjoyed this chat. I think it has. I think it's been a really deep and unusual direction that we've gone in, and I like the fact we've just been natural and I suppose what I would encourage is for those listening to go and follow you and go follow me on Instagram, because we're both about educating and we're both about raising awareness and knowledge, and having those spaces where you are getting those little drops of knowledge could make all the difference in your journey

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, absolutely.

Tamsin Caine:

And and also to look for the people that we follow who have, you know, who have really useful information you know, go and go and look at and you know, maybe you need to do it discreetly, you know, but but maybe um follow some of the divorce coaches that we follow because because they are, are fabulous. You know some of the women's charities. There are plenty of charities also on domestic abuse for men as well. Find out who your local domestic abuse charity is. Most local areas have their own domestic abuse. You can Google it. You can find that out. You can Google it privately if there's a safety issue.

Tamsin Caine:

And just before we disappear to mention there is a 24-hour domestic abuse helpline and if you need it, use it. You may have to wait a while because they are sadly very, very busy, but your safety should come first. So please, please, get help if you need it. Thank you, Ceri, so much. That was an absolutely fantastic conversation. I've very much enjoyed it. Thank you for joining me, thank you very much and thank you for watching or listening and if you have enjoyed it and you do find this useful, please do give us a five star rating, because it helps us to get our podcast out to even more people.

Tamsin Caine:

Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, wwwsmartdivorcecouk. Also, if you are listening on apple podcasts or on on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group, and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.

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Tamsin Caine

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