The Smart Divorce Podcast
If you are separating or divorcing, this podcast is for you. Our host, Tamsin Caine is a Chartered Financial Planner and divorce specialist. Across the series, we speak to divorce professionals, divorcees, coaches, domestic abuse specialists, victim survivors and many others who we think would be of interest to you if you are thinking about separating, have separated, are going through divorce or are post divorce. There is also lots of information if you are supporting a friend through divorce and separation.
For anyone working in the family justice profession, there is plenty for you too. Although this podcast is aimed at the general public, we hear that many of our business friends in the divorce world find our conversations useful!
We hope you find the podcast useful. If you're listening where you can give us a 5* rating, please do, so that we can reach more people. Thanks!
The Smart Divorce Podcast
How to help children by getting therapy yourself
"Just because you're going for therapy doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It means you're trying to do something good for yourself." Tamsin & and our guest Helen Stuart discuss how therapy can transform co-parenting after divorce.
Helen Stuart
Helen has always advocated for good mental health, and vocalised the importance of ease of access to mental health support throughout her career. This has seen her working across community, outreach, counselling and domestic abuse prevention roles. Now Helen brings her wealth of knowledge, managerial experience through TLC: Talk, Listen, Change, and personal connections to mental health to drive Now You’re Talking’s success.
Helen is passionate about leading a socially responsible, business for good, enabling contributions to made back to TLC making the charity’s mission possible.
Tamsin Caine
Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.
You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK
Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS
Chartered Financial Planner
Smart Divorce Ltd
P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”, written by divorce specialists and lawyers writing about their area of expertise to help walk you through the divorce process. You can buy it here https://yourdivorcehandbook.co.uk/buy-the-book/
To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.
Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast and I'm delighted to again be joined by the very lovely Helen Stuart. We are going to be talking therapy again today, but more from the perspective of adults having therapy and why they should consider it when they're going through divorce to help out their entire family. So, Helen, welcome.
Helen Stuart:Lovely to see you again. Thank you so much.
Tamsin Caine:Do you want to just for people who didn't listen, foolishly didn't listen, to the last episode that we recorded together. Do you want to just give a brief introduction about who you are and how you came to? Just give a brief introduction about who you are and how you came to to set up Now You're Talking.
Helen Stuart:Yes, so my name is Helen Stuart. I am the managing director of Now You're Talking. We are a therapy platform that connects individuals to therapists, and we try and make that as safe and ethically responsible as possible by making sure everybody on our site is fully vetted we've checked all their qualifications so you don't have to and try and make it as simple as possible. As we know, going into therapy can be quite scary, so we want to try and hold people's hands through that. Um. So we recognized that there was a need for this within the market and decided to set up. Now You're Talking, and I suppose the unique thing about us is when you work with us. 66% of our profits are reinvested back into our parent charity Support Safe, healthy Peer Relationships
Tamsin Caine:oh, that's so lovely.
Tamsin Caine:I love that. I love that it's a service that does an amazing thing for people and gives back. I mean, you can't ask for much more than that, can you? So I guess therapy 20, 30 years ago was something very, very US, not something we particularly embraced in the UK. Uh, you were more thought that, oh crikey, if you need therapy, like think you, it must be really serious, whereas I think in the US more sort of everybody had a therapist and it was more kind of normal and and that that was kind of what you did. Are things changing in the UK?
Helen Stuart:Yeah, I think so.
Helen Stuart:I think it's that it's slow, I would say, um, and there's also a real like north-south divide when it comes to the therapy that I'm finding as well. Um, so I think that, well, you absolutely were. I think in the US it's very openly talked about lots of people going to have a therapist. It's part of kind of their health and well-being routine. I think in the uk, yes, it's definitely been seen as something that people go to crisis point um, not as something that people do as like a maintenance thing. Um, and quite often, actually, you know, therapy is great in a crisis, but it would work much better we'd gone before the crisis happened, which I know is really hard to kind of predict. You can kind of feel things spiraling. That's when it's going to help the most.
Helen Stuart:But yeah, in terms of like this north south divide, I do find that kind of um especially, I've been doing some work well in London and that is becoming more acceptable. People are talking about it more um. I definitely think that in the north we've still got this bit of a mantra of like we're really tough and we don't have to do anything, we'll be fine, um, but yeah, it is changing um slowly. I think there's more open conversations about it. I mean it's funny because obviously what I do, I talk to my friends about it all day long, so I'm almost in a bit of a bubble with it and thinking that it is changing, um, but I've been doing quite a bit of stuff on um, social media and LinkedIn and talking to people as well about kind of what those fears are, about accessing them, and there is, I think ultimately it is the stigma to itself.
Tamsin Caine:I think you're right unfortunately on your platform, because there are lots of different types of therapy aren't there, and it is really important to find the right one for you, the right one that works for you. So do you have different types of therapists on your platform or is it just? Is it just one type? And how should people go about working out what's what's going to work for them?
Helen Stuart:So I think in the therapy world it can feel a little bit overwhelming sometimes if you start really getting down into kind of the modalities of therapy. So you have kind of in-person centered therapy, which is very much about sort of being led by the client, and that's quite good um for when you're kind of wanting to kind of work through issues, kind of have someone kind of support you through that, and then you go into kind of more um structured types of therapy. So that could be behavioral therapy, could be um EMDR therapy, like therapy, and that's very specific focus to a lot of times used with trauma. Um, you know you've got psychodynamic, which is, uh, you know, a little bit more um knowledge, I would say in terms of a therapy type need integrative therapists as well. They kind of blend a lot of the different therapy styles. So there's lots of different types um, and what I would say is that we have a bit of a menu um on our website so people kind of say which kind of um type that they do.
Helen Stuart:But quite often it's just about kind of talking to somebody.
Helen Stuart:So unless you are, you know, have a trauma or you want specific, I would say, um, you know, taking that first step and talking to a therapist talking about their style and I think style is probably a better way to encompass it, because I think he kind of sounds a bit what I don't understand what that means. But actually each therapist will have their own different style and what we do I know you're talking is that you're able to kind of book a connection call with um therapists, so you and that's free of charge, so you get a bit of a feel about what their style is. You, some therapists that can be, um, you know, quite directive and quite challenging, and that works really well for people. Sometimes people feel like that's what they need, whereas you've got others that are very much there to listen and guide you and, um, you know, offer, offer that space to feel safe. I mean, both of them offer a space to feel safe, but they will be slightly different sense of how they communicate and how they work with you.
Tamsin Caine:You know that makes that makes complete sense. You know, in the past, like I've tried, I tried talking therapy and I just that for me personally that didn't work because it wasn't. I didn't feel like I was working like I needed. I needed more from it and I ended up with doing hypnotherapy, which like yeah, like how something was happening and changes were being made. But I also know lots of people who've worked with talking therapists and that's worked tremendously well yeah and I have sent people to hypnotherapists where they've gone: "That was madness. Not for, not for me.
Helen Stuart:And that's it. I think we're all really different and we'll all respond, you know, differently to things. You know, I think that I've had a bit of a blend of physical therapists over the years and at different times of my life I've needed different people. So it's just about kind of finding what suits you for that moment. But also, you know, being able to kind of speak quite openly when that doesn't feel right for you as well, is really important, and I think for us that is our number one priority is that this is only going to work if this feels like the right for you, and that will be different for lots of people.
Tamsin Caine:Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely. So this series of the podcast we're talking about co-parenting and we talked last time about how therapy might work for children themselves. But when I think about how therapy might help the parents, to help the children through, to help them become more resilient, I guess it's that put your own gas mask on first before you, um, before you help anybody else that kind of thinking really. So yeah, would your thought be around that?
Helen Stuart:so I think, following on from um the previous series, when we talked about sort of therapy for young people that are going through a divorce, I think that we spoke about there was this tendency to maybe overly lean on children as a support because they're in the house and they're there. So I think being really clear about the boundaries of that is really important. And I think when you know people are going through a turmoil, and especially a divorce, there is so much to be done, you know there are paperwork, there's meetings, all these different things that are happening, and you just get pushed to the bottom of that pile. Now I don't necessarily think that therapy during a divorce might be helpful. Actually, I think it's something we can kind of look at afterwards and kind of work together and kind of make sense of it. But you know, I think we often just go oh, that doesn't mean that we don't need it.
Helen Stuart:When it comes to co-parenting, depending on kind of the breakdown of that relationship, you know, if that has been, you know, pushed more by one person, if the breakdown, you know, is to do with infidelity, you knowparents you can be, because there is no point you being the best parent for your children or your child if you can't be best co-parents as well, because it just contradicts each other.
Helen Stuart:So, actually having therapy to kind of work through some of those conflicts and again I spoke last time that it's not a magic wand, it takes time but being able to compartmentalize, you know, okay, that's what happened in our relationship and I, you know you could feel really sad about that, you could feel really angry lots of different emotions actually.
Helen Stuart:When it comes to being a co-parent, we both need to show up, we both need to be on the same team and we both need to become we and same team. And children, you know they are seeking stability all of the time and if they can find stability within quite a rocky period, you know you can set things up for them to make sure that they can. You know, look back on that and think actually, you know my parents did the best that they could and they tried to do that in the most supportive way possible. Um, so therapy can really help kind of work through some of those issues, um, and sort of start you off on it on a stead of. You know we're doing this because I want to show up at the best I can for my children
Tamsin Caine:yeah, I love that absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:There are going to be situations where there's been a traumatic relationship, where there's been domestic abuse in that relationship and co-parenting just isn't going to be possible. Parent who's experienced that the victim survivor. How can therapy help them to parent their children in the best possible way, knowing that co-parenting is not going to be a physical option for them?
Helen Stuart:I think that's a really important question because there are multiple layers in that isn't there, and so I think, first and foremost, I think there is the, the trauma to address and kind of work with. You know, um, domestic abuse um is incredibly uh, you know it's a horrendous thing for anyone to go through um, and I think that being able to kind of have some time to really try to work through that not only to um you know help you in terms of being a better parent because you've kind of worked through some of those traumas also to hopefully, you know, have some better understanding of kind of you know how that situation panned out and what happened, as well as kind of coping mechanisms with that. So I think that's kind of the first area I think. Secondly, I think what's really important when it comes to domestic abuse is to talk about safety, um.
Helen Stuart:So when it comes to trying to have you know however that may look like in terms of a co-parent relationship, especially with domestic abuse, that could be incredibly complex in terms of how that well that's going to play out um. So about kind of safety, about, are you feeling safe within that relationship? Is the child feeling safe within that as well to try and kind of work through that um. I think there is so much complexity with trying to clear my throat. I think there is so much complexity when it comes to um domestic abuse and that um having something that can kind of guide you, that isn't someone who's like an immediate network as well, because actually people have their own opinions, people form their own judgments on people and actually that can't that's not sometimes very helpful, especially having someone that's outside of that situation.
Tamsin Caine:Um can really support that as well no, I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think that that's massively important. This is the, I guess, million dollar question that you're probably not going to be able to answer. But, um, if somebody is considering therapy, they're going through divorce and and they're finding it tricky and they feel like they need some support. How often should they have therapy and how? This is probably the how long's a piece of string, but how, how long would you expect it to take? Yeah, bearing in mind that we have sort of said it's important to have kind of maintenance therapy and to keep yourself on an even kind of throughout, but, yeah, actually deal with what's going on. What would you suggest?
Helen Stuart:well I would say, I think, for for people to go, specific circumstance, I think every fortnight is probably a good place to start. So go in every two weeks, because that then gives you kind of a good space between your appointments to then maybe put some of the things into action or some of those reflections and kind of space for you to kind of think about what's been talked about. But you know some people, but you know some people. You know, for whatever reasons that could be financial reasons, or you know other reasons can be, that's not, that's not possible, and it might be that it's months long. Um, well, you know all people people with me as well, um, so I think fortnightly is a good kind of baseline, is probably quite hard in terms of a place to start, um, in terms of how long. So, yeah, um, but I would say, if you are serious about keeping therapy, you really do have to commit to it because, um, what you don't want to do is sort of have a couple of sessions scratch the surface and it feel like you know you've not, you went with it because you haven't. You know it's really scary to lay yourself down for some day and you know if you're going through trauma that maybe you don't want to talk about because it's really hard and you know you you're worried about opening Pandora's box. You know all those different things. You know it can be really scary. But if you really commit to that and you say, do you know what? I'm committed to doing this for a good length of time, you might not need it every fortnight eventually, you know you could reduce that down to every once a month, you know. I know some people do like to check in every three months, you know. So it moves as you kind of grow and kind of go through that process. But yeah, I would say that if you can really try and kind of commit yourself to, you know at least you know six to eight sessions in the beginning to once you've kind of passed that.
Helen Stuart:Because the start of therapy is very much about you telling your story. It's about kind of it's getting to know your therapist, getting to know you. You know, and it's a lot when you first start. You know, depending on how you've ended up or come to therapy, whatever that is, there's a lot of laying bare in the beginning, you know, and it's building trust with that therapist and what you don't want to do is to that point where you're actually going to start being able to take something from it, maybe to make some changes. You know, um, have some coping mechanisms, all those kind of things, and sort of stop that process. So yeah, I would say, um, if you could commit to it and, and you know, really do it for a considerable amount of time, that's kind of best way to approach it that makes sense and is there.
Tamsin Caine:So I had a friend who was having therapy and they'd uncovered some trauma in their past and and there was it was. It was progressive for probably six months, and then I would say they carried on seeing them but actually no changes were being made.
Tamsin Caine:And it wasn't particularly, it wasn't moving them forward after a certain point but they didn't want to go back to having to explain all of the things and to relive the trauma with another therapist. What would your view on that be? Is there a point that you can get to with a therapist where it's like the work with that person is done and you need to move on?
Helen Stuart:yeah, I think it's really important, um, a really great, a really great question.
Helen Stuart:I think, yeah, it probably can get to that point where you feel like you've taken it as far as you can.
Helen Stuart:What I would say is I would absolutely have an open conversation with your therapist and say, look, this is how I'm feeling, because it might be that they've got, you know, um, some other tools within their bag that they're able to be like, okay, well, we can try this and we can do something different to avoid, kind of you having to go to somebody else and kind of start again.
Helen Stuart:Um, or it might be that you take a little bit of a break and you kind of, you know, have, take some time for yourself and then if you feel like you want to kind of start that with somebody else, then start it. But, you know, be again honest with that new therapist and explain, like in a way that you can move forward without having to unpack a lot of that trauma again. There are ways that they can help facilitate that um. But yeah, first and foremost, I would say, have a conversation, because more often than not, there will be, um, you know, something within their skill set that they'll be able to kind of change and do something a little bit differently that's good advice, that, and I think a lot of people feel that's a difficult conversation because they feel that it's criticism of the therapist.
Tamsin Caine:But the other option is you, you're gonna leave and go, yeah, well, so at least you give them the opportunity the therapist to make changes and to be there for you and to help you through whatever's not working any longer.
Helen Stuart:So it does make complete sense and I think I can speak, you know, for for a lot of um therapists that would say that they would always welcome that conversation. You know it might be a difficult conversation. You might find that therapists will often kind of feel the same way too sometimes. But again, if they're kind of very client-led, they're kind of going with you. So, too, that could be a really welcome conversation. But also, you know, a really um helpful way to find, you know, a new way of working with each other. You know it's all about ultimately. You know you are paying for a service and you've got to be able to get out of it. You know the value that you've seen. So it's really important that you're able to have that, that chat, and you can even um, you know there's like like some contracting that you can do with therapists at the beginning and you start to say this is what I need or how to work, and you can kind of revisit that as well. Every therapist is different. There's also a way of doing things as well.
Tamsin Caine:Yeah, no, that's fair enough. There are lots of divorce coaches out there now and a lot of them I know and a lot of them are absolutely fantastic. It's very difficult because there are so many professionals in the area of divorce and you could end up with a lot, and people obviously have a limited resource in most cases and kind of want to pick the right person for the right job and the right people in their team that they need. So how does the therapist differ from a coach? Because there are coaches, you know you could have a coach for absolutely everything now and and divorce coaches are incredibly valuable and doing doing an amazing job. But when might I need a therapist rather than a divorce coach?
Helen Stuart:So I think that with a therapist, they will work with you more over through that emotional pain. You know there is a lot of complex emotions with divorce and I think a big thing which I haven't talked about as much, but that grief around kind of the the ending of that relationship and, um, you know grief when remember the name for it now but when somebody's still there you're not, but you're not with them in a relationship or you know, and that sort of thing, um, and they will help you work with kind of both past and present and kind of working through some of those emotions. Um, but also I think that the main thing is is that a therapist will be trained to work therapeutic way and be able to adjust and of very sort of in present, um, and kind of work through your like different goals and you know kind of you know what you're looking for in the next chapter of your life. You know now this year this divorce has happened. You know how you can move on to the next chapter.
Helen Stuart:So I think they're both really um, really great uh, professionals to have around and you can use them for those different things. But I definitely think, if there are some, really I don't think you can go to a coach and be ready to move forward if you've not really addressed kind of those issues in the beginning. You, you know, if there is trauma, if there is, you know, working through that grief, working through some of those emotional complexities, they can definitely complement each other, is what I would say. But there is a time and a place for both of those professionals.
Tamsin Caine:Yeah, agreed, because if you're dealing with, if you're dealing with deep trauma, you can't make good decisions. You can't're dealing with deep trauma, you can't make good decisions, you can't think of the future and you can't move forward. And you need to address and recover from and be helped to recover from that before you can start moving forward. And absolutely right, and the coaches are. They are a brilliant form of emotional support and can kind of talk you through mistakes that you've made in previous relationships and help prepare you for your next chapter and the next things you're going to do. And some of them can give give some incredible practical support in getting through the divorce. But, as you say, they're not trained as therapists, they can't look back with you and deal with, help you to deal with past trauma on a good coach.
Helen Stuart:You know we often get um referrals through from coaches because they are brilliant at identifying what actually, you know this isn't going to work because there are some deep-rooted issues that kind of need to be worked through. Um, you know, so we work with some brilliant coaches that um refer people on to us that that would be better off having some therapy before kind of moving on to the coaching coaching side.
Tamsin Caine:And divorce coaches was something I had never heard about until, uh, probably about six months ago, and I met a couple at a networking event and I was like, oh you're, you're great, what a great idea oh, there is some amazing divorce coaches out there and you know we work with with quite a number, but probably I didn't know about them until I started doing that work, this work, but that still would be sort of six or seven years ago, yeah, but it's that they're definitely.
Tamsin Caine:You know they can help do some of the work that previously you might have relied on your solicitor for, yes, and that they're the wrong person, and I think therapy almost falls into that bucket of. In the past you might have used you tried to use your solicitor. You don't want to be deep trying to use your solicitor to deal with emotional part of of your divorce. Yes, you will spend an absolute fortune with a box of tissues in your solicitor's office and they cannot help you to move through. Yeah, as a therapist and however you feel about therapy, you need to kind of get over it and just go in, go in and see somebody and I think once people have experienced therapy, that perhaps be less of a stigma and that's it, isn't it?
Helen Stuart:I think you know your solicitor is there to do the practical stuff, you know, to kind of move you through that process. And I think if you were to kind of, you know, write down the money that was spent, because you'd spent, you know, an hour, but you know crying, be really upset, glad to actually the money that was spent on on the divorce people would probably go well, I need to spend that money. You know, crying, be really upset, glad to actually the money that was spent on on the divorce. People would probably go, well, I need to spend that money, you know, with somebody trained to kind of talk me through that, because actually you're not. Yes, you're offloading, but you're not actually getting anything like through from that process, which which sounds really harsh to say, but I think it's the reality of it.
Helen Stuart:Um and again, I think coaching has become, which is quite trendy, I would say, these days. I think if you've got a coach, it people are like oh, you know, you're trying to do better with your life, whereas I think we've still got this thing that. Well, if you've got a therapist, then there's something wrong and I think it's about trying to kind of rebalance that as well, because actually both are working towards kind of um, you know, trying to create the best version of yourself, but just in different ways yeah, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:I do think it helps some celebrities. They're now coming forward and talking about the therapy that they had and have on an ongoing basis because, yeah, it makes it a bit more although maybe not, I was thinking to say a little bit more normal, but a bit like you don't have to be in a really bad place, you don't have to be in the Priory because you've got a therapist. And I think that was the sort of thought was you know, if you need to see a therapist, there must be something serious wrong with you.
Helen Stuart:Whereas it's that at all. No. And then Emma Willis and her partner have just done a really interesting documentary he's seen it where they are following people inside therapy rooms, kind of sitting and listening and and and their first appointments, and so that is really interesting and I think that gives a really practical insight into what it's like from a celebrity point of view, from such a real people. Um. So yeah, that's. I think that's been a great, great, um, great addition to the therapy world, absolutely.
Tamsin Caine:I like them too. They're a. They're good value for money as well. They are um, we're coming to the end of our time together. Is there anything that you want to add to what we've talked about today?
Helen Stuart:yeah, I think I think the most important thing is is you know it's understanding that this sort of incredibly difficult thing to go through, you know, a divorce, trying to navigate, co-parenting, trying to navigate. You know your own emotions trying to navigate co-parenting trying to navigate. You know your own emotions trying to navigate your children's emotions. You know grandparents' emotions, you know. I feel like that's a whole different kind of topic on top of that as well. You know, because it's a lot, and I think you have to remember that you are really important in that process and your mental well-being is really important and you have to take care of yourself and there are options out there for you to be able to do that in a way that suits you and that can be a great tool for you to kind of work through this, whether that comes to you being able to process some of the trauma process process, the grief process, those complex emotions, whether that's you know understanding what your role will be when it comes to co-parenting.
Helen Stuart:You know all of those things that kind of come with a divorce. I think that therapy can be a huge um, you know catalyst and help you make some of those changes. So you know, please, I just I want to end this by saying that just because you are going for therapy or thinking about therapy does not mean there is something wrong with you. It means that you're trying to do something good for yourself, to better yourself and to help kind of navigate and work through what you're going through. And actually there is nothing more commendable than kind of putting yourself first and recognizing that you need that support.
Tamsin Caine:Yeah, absolutely it's. It's like taking exercise or eating well and drinking plenty of water. You know it should be part and parcel of of looking after yourself, making sure you're in the best possible condition that you can be for your children, for your family, but also so that you can make the best possible decisions in your divorce for your, your and your family's future as well. So, helen, thank you so much. It's been fantastic to talk to you again. I really appreciate you joining me and thank you for listening, and if you have enjoyed today's podcast, please do leave us a five-star review, because it helps us to get the word out to even more people. Many thanks, helps us to get the word out to even more people.
Tamsin Caine:Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website www. smartdivorce. co. uk. Also, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic.
Tamsin Caine:I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support. We do have a Facebook group now. It's called Separation, divorce and Dissolution UK. Please do go on to Facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.
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