The Smart Divorce Podcast

Navigating divorce with SEND children

• Tamsin Caine • Season 11

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The Smart Divorce Podcast has joined forces with Stowe Talks Podcast for this special collaborative episode! We are delighted to be joined by special guest Rhiannon Gogh, who is a SEND specialist financial planner. This is an area I am asked about more and more. It was great to have Matt Taylor, host of Stowe Talks, with us to answer the legal questions when it comes to ensuring that SEND families have the help they need. 

Rhiannon Gogh FPFS

Rhiannon Gogh is an award-winning Chartered Financial Planner, a Fellow of the Personal Finance Society and a SEND (Special Educational Needs and Disability) Financial Planner. She is the Director of PlanIt Future, the UK’s first special needs only advisory firm and the Carers Academy, an online training and consultancy provider for parent carers. In 2024 she founded SENDA, the UK Alliance of Special Educational Needs and Disability Advisers, an independent working group of legal, financial and charity professionals. She has presented for charities and the national network of parent carer forums for nine years and provided financial adviser training for SOLLA, the CII and the PFS. In 2025, she released her first book, Planning With Love, A Guide to Wills and Trusts for Parents of Children With Special Needs. She lives in Somerset with her husband, and two sons, one of whom has profound autism.


The book  https://bit.ly/PlanningWithLoveBook
http://www.carersacademy.co.uk/
www.planitfuture.co.uk
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LinkedIn
Eventbrite
 

Matthew Taylor

Matthew is a Partner at Stowe Family Law. He has been the co-host of Stowe talks, the Stowe Family Law podcast since its inception in 2022. Matthew is a financial specialist, focusing on resolving financial difficulties following divorce and separation, including high-net-worth cases. He has extensive expertise in nuptial agreements and cohabitation agreements and often advises clients on TOLATA matters. He is one of Stowe's pension experts, regularly working on cases involving complex pension structures as well as business assets. Matthew is a Legal 500 Leading Partner.

Find out more about the Stowe talks podcast at stowetalks.co.uk
and further support at Stowe Support https://www.stowefamilylaw.co.uk/stowe-support/ 


Tamsin Caine

Tamsin is a Chartered Financial Planner with over 20 years experience. She works with couples and individuals who are at the end of a relationship and want agree how to divide their assets FAIRLY without a fight.

You can contact Tamsin at tamsin@smartdivorce.co.uk or arrange a free initial meeting using https://bit.ly/SmDiv15min. She is also part of the team running Facebook group Separation, Divorce and Dissolution UK

Tamsin Caine MSc., FPFS

Chartered Financial Planner

Smart Divorce Ltd

Smart Divorce

P.S. I am the co-author of “My Divorce Handbook – It’s What You Do Next That Counts”

To learn more about our podcast sponsor Ampla Finance – access their product guide here: https://bit.ly/3Ieqmuc
Or complete enquiry form https://bit.ly/3W4J7pz and one of the team will be in touch.


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Tamsin Caine:

Hello and welcome to the Smart Divorce Podcast, a very special episode today of the Smart Divorce Podcast x Stowe Talks. It's a collaboration with the fabulous Stowe Talks podcast and we are going to be talking to the amazing Rhiannon Gogh, who is a SEND financial planning specialist. So, for all of those of you who have SEND children or are part of SEND families, we're hoping that today will really give you a helping hand and tell you how to deal with this situation when it comes to divorce. So we will jump straight in and over to Matthew Taylor. Matt Taylor, the host of Stowe Talks.

Matthew Taylor:

Hello and welcome to a very special Stowe Talks x Smart Divorce collab podcast. A bit of a new venture for us as we're joined by an old friend of the podcast, Tamsin Caine from Smart Divorce. I'm Matthew Taylor, partner at Stowe Family Law, and today I'm joined for a special episode with Tamsin and Rhiannon Gogh, a special educational needs and disability financial planner. Rhiannon is the director of Planit Future and founder of SENDA, the UK Alliance of Special Educational Needs and Disability Advisors. So, Tamsin, welcome back. Rhiannon, welcome to Stowe Talks. We're going to have a fantastic discussion today about all things SEND and divorce. But if we can start by introducing yourself, Tamsin, if you can reintroduce yourself to our listeners please.

Tamsin Caine:

Thank you, Matt. Thank you for agreeing to do this fantastic collab, and when I heard about the amazing work Rhiannon was doing.

Tamsin Caine:

I needed to get her on our podcast and to have a wise solicitor like yourself, Matt, available to answer all the legal questions that I haven't got a clue about. I thought it was an opportunity we couldn't miss. So it all started because I read Rhianna's book Planning with Love, which is behind her on the screen, and I've got my copy here. So I am a Chartered Financial Planner and Resolution Accredited Divorce Specialist. I've been doing this work for a whole long time now and I work with couples and individuals who are splitting up to help them to work on their financial settlement. I think that's probably about it for today. That'll do.

Matthew Taylor:

That'll more than do. Sorry, I'm still feeling slightly taken aback at the description of me as being a wise solicitor. I mean, obviously you are aiming to get Lisa co-hosted in this with you, but she's too busy and too important to turn up today, so you get the second choice. Rhiannon, welcome to the podcast. Could you just tell us a bit about yourself, then, please?

Rhiannon Gogh:

Thank you so much for having me and thank you for the invite. I really appreciate it. So my name is Rhiannon Gogh and I'm a Chartered Financial Planner, a Fellow of the Personal Finance Society. I'm the founder of SENDA, which is the UK Alliance of Special Educational Needs and Disability Advisors, and I'm also the Director of my own SEND planning firm, Planit Future Financial.

Matthew Taylor:

Well, thank you very much. So we're going to talk all things divorce and SEND today. So I mean, let's just start with the absolute basics. I'm sure most people listening to this will know.

Matthew Taylor:

But when we're talking about SEND. What are we talking about? What does that mean? What's the sort of the range in terms of conditions and the way that it can affect children?

Rhiannon Gogh:

So SEND. So Special Educational Needs and Disability there are some interesting statistics that usually leave an audience staggered. So I will start with those and then I'll sort of broaden it out from there. So, looking at disability first, 11% of children have some kind of disability and that's according to UK disability stats. That figure has doubled over the last decade, so that is quite staggering in the number in increases of those with disabilities in children. So 0 to 18. So that's disability. Special educational needs. So when we say send, we say or special educational needs, it's describing some kind of additional support that they will need in their educational setting and that percentage in the UK is near 20%. So 20%, one in five children have a special educational need. The biggest prevalence or the largest area of prevalence in those both of those areas actually is around social communication, communication. So as far as diagnoses are confirmed, our concern it is a confirmed diagnosis in autism.

Rhiannon Gogh:

Usually that is the prevalent condition if you're looking at conditions within those numbers

Matthew Taylor:

Okay, so maybe let's kind of start with, before we move on to the impact that divorce has on children with SEND. What are in any kind of family unit, whether separated, whether still together, whether divorcing? What are in any kind of family unit, whether separated, whether still together, whether divorcing? What are the core challenges that families face?

Rhiannon Gogh:

Well, there are probably five key challenges that I've identified and that's through research over the last 10 years and presenting to families. So I present at least once a week to families. Last week was Derby, this week will be Somerset. So I go out and I'll present virtually or in person to families of children like mine.

Rhiannon Gogh:

So my son has autism, he's 15 and he's pre-verbal and there are five key challenges that I would categorise from, I would say, caring, so you might look at the caring responsibilities that I have within the family and how they'll continue. So the unique part of what a parent carer does, if you sort of look at that versus someone that cares for another relative, is I'll be lifelong caring for my son and I'll probably die before he does so. The person that I'm caring for will outlive me and that's absolutely terrifying. So that's a really unique concern for parent carers. There are financial resilience concerns. So it's really expensive to bring up a disabled child generally accepted to be three times as much to bring up a disabled child as a non-disabled child and my earnings are impacted by the level of care that I have to provide.

Rhiannon Gogh:

So my son was up last night. He can't sleep on his own, so one of us will always have to stay with him overnight and that means that, amongst other things, it's difficult to get to work in the morning and it's difficult to hold down a full-time job. So we've got caring issues. We've got financial resilience issues. What I'm trying to do in my financial planning is also provide for him. So it's likely that he wouldn't be able to work in the future. So many parents like me are thinking, oh my gosh, if this young chap can't work, then how can we make plans now to make sure he's provided for in the future? So I've picked out the main challenges there, Matt. I hope that gives you a picture.

Matthew Taylor:

Yeah, that's really really helpful and illuminating. And I think that people who maybe don't have personal experience of caring for or knowing someone who has a disability, such as your son, you know, you hear that and you think, oh goodness, it's always wider than you think. I think it's the reaction. You kind of think, oh, it must be quite hard, but then you hear about the impact and you don't think about the day-to-day, the exhaustion and things and that long-term thing and it's really you know, you said it quite matter-of-factly and I'm sure that you don't really feel that way but the thoughts of you know how outliving your you know your, your child's kind of outliving you when you're their carer is is pretty scary thing.

Matthew Taylor:

Um, I mean Tamsin, just I guess, bring you in at this point just talked about Rhiannon, talked about some of the financial considerations there. When you're doing your work with clients dealing with finances and financial planning, is this something that comes up often? How do you go about tackling these kind of very long-term care issues when you've got children who might live, you know, you know a great many years? How do you factor that into your work?

Tamsin Caine:

Yeah, absolutely. It's coming up more and more and I think, although the statistics that Rhiannon just quoted flawed me a bit, because that's one in 10 or one in five and then one in five kids, I mean that's, that's. That's not then surprising that it comes up in my work quite a lot. You know, more and more I'm meeting families who have children who are impacted like this, and I think one of the biggest issues is that families don't know what they're going to need in the future. So it's really difficult. I mean, look, none of us know what's going to happen in our future, whether they're going to be able to be housed in supported housing or whether you're going to need to provide some sort of accommodation for them, all of these things.

Tamsin Caine:

The matter if you've got to buy a house for your child, that's a. I mean, it's a big enough consideration for the majority of us who don't have SEND children. Thinking about paying a deposit for our children to help them get on the housing ladder, but actually considering buying a house for them in the future. We're talking about a whole different ballgame. So there are massive considerations. And then, obviously, as Rhiannon talked about, there are considerations post the people that we're planning those lives. So they want to make sure that their children can be looked after and cared for and have financial stability when they're not here anymore. And I think that's one of the biggest things that some families are concerned about, and it's certainly one of the things that Rhiannon covers very eloquently in her book, about thinking about those considerations and then, if you chuck divorce into the mix, we're in a whole, a whole other ball game.

Matthew Taylor:

Yeah, aren't we just well before we move on to that particular ball game. I wonder if and I know this is an enormous area full of great complexities, but for anyone who's listening, who's you know, maybe perhaps someone's only recently had a diagnosis of SEND in their child maybe listen to this and starting to think about these longer-term things.

Matthew Taylor:

Are there any kind of, and Tamsin, any kind of quick wins, easy things, easy-ish things I mean easy, you know, relative anything that someone in that position might look at doing when they're starting to consider their financial future?

Rhiannon Gogh:

So I think the biggest area is really around estate planning. So when we're thinking about what happens when I'm no longer here, the biggest win that a parent can undertake is to think about a specialist trust sitting within their will. So the step back from that is just to affirm that and this shocked me too that many parents of children, like Tristan, my son, don't understand that when they pass away, if you name your son and your woman, if the person doesn't have mental capacity, it doesn't automatically happen that they receive their inheritance. So I was really shocked to learn that, and many parents that I talk to when I travel around schools nationally don't understand that. And then, to follow on from that, they don't understand how to protect their young person against financial vulnerability and how to make sure that the valuable means tested care, support benefits that they have in place is also not jeopardised by an inheritance. And the key to all of that is by setting up a world with a specialist trust within it. So that is a wonderful and selfless place to start yeah,

Matthew Taylor:

that's really useful.

Matthew Taylor:

Tamsin anything you would add on there in terms of the early first step see you nodding away with that, so presumably agree with everything that we haven't just said

Tamsin Caine:

yeah yeah, absolutely, and it's it.

Tamsin Caine:

you know, that really shocked me learning that fact. And the other thing and I'm sure we'll come on to it is about child trust funds, and I know this is something that Yannin's really passionate about letting people know about that if you've got a child trust fund for your child and they fit into the SEND category that they can't receive their child trust fund. And I was like, well, of course they can't. But what like? How do you put that right because, to an extent, if you've not made provisions in your will.

Tamsin Caine:

There is potentially things you can do about it, but child trust funds a horrendous thought, but in terms terms of quick wins, I think and it's probably not a quick win but certainly thinking about who you want to have guardianship of over your child if anything happens to you, Because you know we're all the same. None of us know what's going to happen to us. We don't know how long we're going to be here. We hope we're going to be here for a very long time and most planners assume that our clients are going to be here till they're 100. But you don't know what's around the corner. And if you've got a send child who you know is going to need someone to have guardianship for the rest of their lives, finding that right person early on is is really important

Matthew Taylor:

okay, so there's, there's a couple of really helpful things. You know, big topics to look at, but helpful things for anyone who's going through this process. So let's move on and sort of talk about why we're here today. I guess, how does this all add in as an extra layer of complexities when someone's looking at divorce? So, rhiannon, let's start with you. When you're speaking to people, speaking to parents, I mean obviously the stress involved, life stressful, parenting stressful, the extra layers of stress, like you said, talking about sleepless nights and things that go on for years and years and years, not just in the early years of a child's life. That's going to put a strain on a lot of marriages. What do you see in terms of people deciding to separate and divorce? Divorce is that something you see a lot of in the sort of SEND community?

Rhiannon Gogh:

I do, but I do see it a lot and there is an extra element of stress, I think, when you have an autistic child. But it saddens me because it's it's such a team sport bringing up a disabled child and say that in the wrong way. But a perfect example would be my husband. You know I knew I was coming on this podcast today. So he says, right, well, I'll have Tristan last night so that you don't have to get up in the middle of the night and walk around and put the lights back on and such, and we plan very much like that as a team.

Rhiannon Gogh:

So, whilst I do see it, it's very hard and that caring for somebody adds an extra dynamic and an extra complication. On the plus side, I do work with divorced parents who very much still want to plan together because they're still planning the future of the same child and it's a child that is not going to flee the nest at 18 or 21. It's a child that I mean I say say with my husband it could be a retirement for three, not a retirement for two. We'll have christian with us, so that there isn't really in some cases the option not to collaborate with planning because the caring bit doesn't really go away just because the divorce happens.

Tamsin Caine:

That makes sense

Matthew Taylor:

yeah, no, I've certainly seen that on the cases that I've been involved with. Is that, I'd say, sweeping generalisation. But the level of collaboration has to be high, should be higher. That's not exclusive. I've certainly had a couple of cases where there hasn't been collaboration and then that makes the normal complexities of co-parenting even harder. So I mean, perhaps what we should talk about is there's a couple of different areas. I'll do a very little bit of law, keep that to a minimum.

Matthew Taylor:

But when you're looking at a separation with children, obviously you've got the two areas, the actual provision for who the children spends time with, um, and you've got the sort of financial elements. So how does SEND play into that? If the courts got to get involved, the parents can't agree. Firstly, if parents can agree about their arrangements for their children, then generally that's fine and the court doesn't want to be involved. If you get to the point where you need some um intervention, then the you know the the court has got to consider the factors in section one, the children act, which includes the physical, emotional and educational needs of the child. So these additional needs are really important. The court will absolutely consider that. Obviously continuity and certainty and routine can be a bigger thing. That's a big thing for most kids, but it can be a much bigger thing for, um, a child with SEND. So you know, that's something that the court's going to try and weigh in in terms of the time that the child's going to spend. But there's still the presumption is that both parents will be involved in the child's life, unless there's a very good welfare reason not to. So that's just very briefly in terms of timing, but what we're going to in time that children can spend with their parents. What we'll obviously focus today on a bit more is finances.

Matthew Taylor:

So how does that play in? Well, there's divorce and there's separations of a married couple, and we'll talk about both a little bit. But in terms of divorce, again, the main statutes, the matrimonial causes act, and the first consideration in the court is the welfare of any minor child. So that's the first thing that the court's got to think about is the welfare of any minor child. It's also got to consider, um, the responsibilities that each party has in or continue to have as part of their marriage for the foreseeable future, so that that can include, yes, a child, but a grown-up child. You know, the obligations and the responsibilities of caring beyond them turning 18, and also includes you know what that impact has on people's ability to earn.

Matthew Taylor:

So we'll come on to this in a minute. I think you know that's a big factor. If you're unmarried, you can rely on Schedule 1 of the Children Act, which has got some slightly different provisions, but again it's similar in that the court wants to look at the physical, educational, emotional needs, any physical or mental disability of the child and the manner in which the child was being, or expected to be, educated or trained. So maybe the schooling is different. There's additional, additional schooling provisions. So that's a really quick run through some of the statutory considerations, but let's put these into practice. So, tamsin, maybe talk, could you talk about some of the financial challenges that become particularly acute on divorce?

Tamsin Caine:

yeah, absolutely so. I'm working with a number of families who, um, who have SEND children and sadly, um, they're not in a position that the lovely families that Rhianna's talked about and that you've talked about, Matt, are in, where where there's very much a collaboration, where they want to do things together. Um, unfortunately, the families that I'm working with are are in a position where it's very much on on the parent that I'm working with, um, and they're the one that's unable to work due to caring responsibilities. They don't see their um children in a position where they're able to work. In these cases they're either adult children or very nearly adult children, so 16, 17 years old but with these we don't know what they're going to be entitled to. We don't know what they're going to need, because the parents have never been in this position before and they're not experienced in in what the needs are.

Tamsin Caine:

So you know they're looking at housing not only themselves but their children for the remainder of their lives. That's a huge consideration because when we're looking at that's their starting point, when we're looking at divorce and finances, where are the children going to live, where are the parents going to live? And we're obviously looking at housing at both parties, at housing at both parties. And this is probably one fear that I'm going to throw back to you, Matt, because, yeah, we look at children's housing, we look at housing the parents but quite often actually moving a child out of area so let's say the area is not affordable for the parents to both have houses in moving the child out of area, out of their supportive community, out of the area is not affordable for the parents to both have houses. In moving the child out of area, out of their supportive community, out of the area that they know, even often out of the property they know, will cause immense distress. How does the law deal with that, Matt?

Matthew Taylor:

I think it's really tricky. I think that the problem in this area, from a sort of financial perspective, is that you have factors moving in different directions that are not compatible, and the factors being your housing needs are probably higher and more expensive, but your income is lower. So your mortgage capacity is lower. So you need more capital, and that doesn't create more money. You know it doesn't create. You know you're not, you create, there are extra issues, but it doesn't create more money to meet those problems. So, um, the court's got to have a view as to what's best for the child. Um, sometimes a movement out the area might just be unavoidable, but there are other things that can be done. Um, so sometimes what the court can do is make what's called a measure order. Now, these used, these used to be pretty popular and now far less so in general.

Matthew Taylor:

But a measure order the case of Mr and Mrs Mesher is basically an order which says that one party who is the primary care of the children can stay in the family home until the children turn 18, at which point the property is then sold, and it's where there's not the ability for the parties to both rehouse and for there to be suitable accommodation for the children. They're not that popular anymore because it tends to involve the non-remaining party being locked out from receiving their share of the asset for potentially a prolonged period of time. But there are orders that still happen, or deferred orders for sale. If not doesn't have to be on 18, but to give a few more years, that is something that can be applied.

Matthew Taylor:

The flip side to that is that the measure order was sort of done on the assumption that children leave home at 18, which back in the 90s, when that case was decided, was a thing and now isn't really a thing, and certainly isn't a thing if you've got an SEND child. But those are options you might look to maintain that continuity for a longer period. I mean, rhiannon, how does that? Is that something that you potentially see when you're doing your financial planning with? With people you might say, well, let's stay in the family home a bit longer than might otherwise be the case, just to provide that continuity for the child?

Rhiannon Gogh:

Yes, but I think you've got to bear in mind the siblings, and planning with the family home is very complex because with some SEND families they will.

Rhiannon Gogh:

They will know very clearly that they would want, for example, with me. I want my autistic son to be able to stay in this house, but then it conjures up the problem of okay, so what happens to the inheritance of his siblings? So if I'm getting like, for example, if my family home is my entire, the bulk of my estate, and I'm leaving that to one son, how does the other son feel about that and how do I as a parent feel about that? So, yes, planning with the family home, as you said, but there are extra complications when you're looking at making provision for siblings as well, I think.

Matthew Taylor:

Yeah, that's certainly a complicating factor, both siblings and the sort of non-resident parent. If we work on the assumption that maybe there's going to be more of a primary carer type model, even where there's collaboration, I think that's possibly more common. What that also leads to from a legal perspective is we talked about reduced income for people. That gives extra scope for potentially spousal maintenance claims. So income is a really tricky point. The ability for a carer to maximise their income is pretty limited. They may be able to get some sort of state support in terms of benefits. So I mean, rhiannon, what sort of help is out there for people in terms of benefits? We're looking at carer's allowance. What else have we got?

Rhiannon Gogh:

What I would suggest is benefits are notoriously complex, especially universal credit. It's very much on a case-by-case basis, so I always suggest that parents go to some independent benefit help and that could be something like entitled to or turned to us and just make sure they're getting what they're entitled to. The two big things they tend to miss out on are council tax deductions that's a huge thing and also carers allowance, because the thresholds for carers allowance have now changed so you can earn more and still receive carers allowance, and that only changed in April, so that hasn't quite sunk in yet

Matthew Taylor:

okay, so, yeah, so that's really useful.

Matthew Taylor:

but, yeah, both those websites are incredibly, incredibly helpful when putting putting information together from a divorce perspective, because we would look at it and say, okay, what's your earning capacity going to be going forward, what are you entitled to? Because some of the benefits you may not be entitled to while you're living together under the same roof and then perhaps if one party was to move out at the end following a divorce, the entitlement might change. So it's really important to look at that and really try and maximise that level of income, because if you're looking at a situation where maybe the family home is being retained so one party moves out, the family home has to then house themselves. Their ability to pay spousal maintenance on top of any child maintenance is really tricky. It's really imperiled.

Matthew Taylor:

Tamsin, any other sort of things that you look at with your clients when they're coming to you and trying to square this really difficult circle of you know, moving on to the next stage, not necessarily wanting to have a new property, but having to release some equity, you know what other? Are there any other magic tricks that you can conjure up for them?

Tamsin Caine:

I wish it was down to a magic trick, because that would make it. I think we don't. We all meet people who we'd really like to create some magic for and just be able to solve things really easily. But, like you said, we've got housing to consider, we've got probably low income or the inability to earn any income, and then we've got actually considering the child's needs now, but also in the future and into, you know, through through our clients, retirements it's. It's a very difficult puzzle to solve and I think you'll probably be able to talk on this a bit more. But you know we look, we look at is it possible to to provide some assets? You know there might not be the possibility of spousal maintenance from income for the, the non-resistant spouse, to be able to afford. Couldn't really separate the capital assets differently to maybe square that circle? And how does a court deal with that?

Matthew Taylor:

yeah, I mean the. The starting point for division of assets is add up and divide by two of matrimonial assets or anything that's a product of the marriage, and then you depart from equality for a number of reasons. So the most common to meet needs and in cases like this, your needs, your needs for capital, are likely to be heightened by virtue of the fact your income is let's assume that the resident carer's income is going to be lower. So it probably means you need more equity to buy a property, or you need a slush fund to support you or to use equity from a house sale. Perhaps you have to go into rented and you have to use it to pay the rent. So perhaps, or alternatively, you can be looking at a spousal maintenance order, but instead you capitalize that order. So instead of someone paying X amount per month in spousal maintenance, you can say, well, let's instead of doing that over, instead of paying a thousand I'm going to do easy math a thousand pounds a month for three years. Instead of you pay that every month and say, well, a thousand pounds a month for three years is 36,000 pounds. You know you pay that every month and say, well, £1,000 a month for three years is £36,000, you pay that as an extra sum to capitalise a maintenance claim. So there are various ways of doing it. I think that. So certainly that would probably be my expectation that there's more likely to be a departure from equality, unless you're dealing with a sort of sharing case where there are a lot of assets to go around, and most cases aren't either.

Matthew Taylor:

I think what is tricky and we're talking about it a little bit before about needs. So needs is this hugely important concept and commonly when we're looking at needs on divorce, it's needs for housing, needs for income, needs for pension Fairly foreseeable, fairly predictable. But with cases such as these, things seem to me to be far less predictable and we have to look at needs over a longer term or the initial two, three years. We have to start. Family lawyers love saying this. Family lawyers love saying we don't crystal ball gaze. I think in these cases we kind of have to crystal ball gaze. So how do you approach that, rhiannon, the need to look in the short, medium and long term?

Rhiannon Gogh:

That's very difficult, to be honest, when you're talking to parents. Um, some parents struggle to think beyond friday, quite frankly, let alone into the long-term future. My advice, when I'm talking to about, first of all, I I don't shy away from asking questions about that. Um, many of the families that I work with want to talk about their children and they want to spend time talking optimistically about the future of their child as well.

Rhiannon Gogh:

So what I will often ask is I will ask around long-term vision about whether they're likely to live independently, whether they're likely to earn and work, what the vision is for the long-term future. And I'll usually preface the question by saying I know it's hard, but I know it's difficult, but can you imagine them living it? I know it's difficult, but can you imagine them working? So I will always ask the question. And then the second thing I would say is sometimes I will speak to parents and they'll say I just don't know. Is the honest answer? I really have no idea. And in that scenario I would say which is probably not the answer you want to hear that is, to plan flexibly, so to build in.

Matthew Taylor:

We hate flexible. Come on, this is speaking to a lawyer. Here we deal with certainty and nothing else.

Rhiannon Gogh:

Well, I don't. So I will build in the ability for one trust to change to another, the ability to add in future trustees, the ability to have a backup guardian, all of those exciting flexibilities. I'm sorry, that's how I tend to plan.

Matthew Taylor:

No, it's very, it's very sensible. It slightly gives me a migraine at the thought if we like things on one sheet of paper and make things nice and clear. But life doesn't work like that In the easiest, you know the easiest in quotes, clear. But life doesn't work like that in the easiest, you know, the easiest in quotes um divorce. Life doesn't work like that. So obviously in cases such as this the flexibility is really important. Um Tamsin, you know, do you do you? Can you kind of recognize that that needs flexibility with your clients?

Tamsin Caine:

yes, but I also spend my life working with lawyers who need certainty. Blame the lawyers we're awful people.

Tamsin Caine:

Absolutely dreadful people. I guess when we're working in divorce we need a little bit more certainty. We obviously want to give flexibility to the family, but with a little bit more certainty. So we want to be thinking about what are the needs likely to be, bigger needs likely to be for the um send children? How are we going to deal with those bigger needs with both parents? Can we put anything into place if something changes that we can't currently anticipate?

Tamsin Caine:

So is the possibility of well, can we agree up front that if there's a big need, financial needs in the future that we pay for that between us, that we share bigger costs that we? How are we going to work out who pays what for these bigger things? Because it it can't all fall onto the resident spouse. You know, if there's a big change needs to be made to the property, for example because of needs of the child, that can't all fall onto the resident spouse. So how are we going to deal with those in the future? And if we can think about those sort of things that might be required in the future, we might be able to think flexibly enough for the family's planning but sort of precise enough for the lawyers to be able to put something down in paper and in order to keep them happy as well yeah, I think that's all very sensible stuff.

Matthew Taylor:

So for anyone listening to this and thinking, oh, that's giving me some ideas or stuff that I haven't thought about, I need to think about. You know that I guess what's the? And maybe thinking how do I go ahead I mean, I'm going to cut to chase and say the answer is to speak to you too. Um, so what? What's your role? When do you maybe explain a bit about how you work with parents and how you work with families, and what does it actually look like being a financial planner working with people in this situation?

Rhiannon Gogh:

So many parents will come to me before they see their solicitor and they'll come to me because they don't really understand the way forward. They might have had a conversation amongst other parents, they might have an inkling they have to do something, but they're not sure what they have to do. So they will come to me almost like a coordinator, so I'll be able to talk to them about the protections that we're looking to put in place. That's estate planning, providing care, funding for the future and ultimately forming a special needs plan. So that is estate planning, savings planning, care planning and then not forgetting the parents planning too. So planning for the parents it's almost like a buy one, get one free when you're a special needs planner because you have an extra person to plan for. So that's the role that I'll play. So they'll come to me, we'll talk about the different options and then we'll go together.

Rhiannon Gogh:

Usually I will refer to a specialist solicitor to put in place specialist trusts and then I will, once that's done, I will start care funding and putting together a picture of that child's life and then slotting together the funding that sits behind that, making sure that grants and benefits are applied for and secured and making sure that all the planning that the parents have in place is safely accessible and that it doesn't impact that future means tested care. That's so incredibly important. So that is my role. And then I work within Sender. So, in answer to your question, how does anybody get involved in this or how do they find more information? Well, sender is a collaboration between financial planners and legal advisors and charities. So I work with the Mencap Trust Co. I'll be working with specialist EHC solicitors and Wills and Trust solicitors, all as a team. And that's when special needs planning is really the best, when it's a team and we're kind of going back and forth between ourselves and making sure we've got the right plan in place.

Matthew Taylor:

Fabulous and Tamsin anything that you can add to that and how you know what is in it for parents to start working with a financial planner.

Tamsin Caine:

Then, if we tip in divorce into the midst of all that that Rhiannon has just said, we complicate it even more. With divorce. It's always vitally important to have a divorce team. We've talked about this on the podcast before. But you definitely need um, a financial expert, you need a legal expert. You preferably need an emotional support expert as well, so therapist and divorce coach somebody who can give you that emotional support so that you're not spending your hard-earned cash crying on me on that because we're not qualified to deal with you with those things as well as somebody else might be. So we're adding the divorce into the mix.

Tamsin Caine:

Quite often people come to me before they've seen the solicitor. Quite often they come via the solicitor. But we're going to help you work out the money bit and we're going to hold your hand through the process, and there will be, if you are a SEND family. There will be other things that you need to have in place and that you need to do, and that's where we'd refer to Rhiannon if you need to, but also would work on working with the Wilson Trust listeners to make sure everything's sorted out so that once you come out the other side, everything's sorted. But we've just thrown so much stuff at you and to deal with all of those things mean most people suffer overwhelm when they're going through divorce as it is and feel like it's a full-time job. So we're not going to do all this.

Tamsin Caine:

Rome wasn't built in a day. It's very slow, very careful, at your pace, you know. No pressure, no rush. You don't have to. Just because your relationship is broken down today, it doesn't all need to be done tomorrow. It needs to be at your pace yeah, I think that's really helpful advice.

Matthew Taylor:

It can seem so overwhelming, and particularly if you've got the extra complexities of what can be a very difficult home life and your concerns about your child and trying to manage their education and and all those things that come with it on top of all the normal stresses, it's um, it's a huge amount, but, um, well, that's been enormously helpful. Um, what we, as you know, tamzin, but what we always like to do on these podcasts is leave people with a little top tip at the end of you know, a little takeaway message. So I wonder if you could each with a little top tip at the end of you know, a little takeaway message. So I wonder if you could each give me your top tip for any anyone who is, uh, an SEND family going through a divorce where they're just about to start or part way through the process.

Matthew Taylor:

What's your each of your kind of top tip is how to deal with that

Rhiannon Gogh:

So my top tip is really just to be aware of the foreseeable harms that exist for SEND families that don't exist for other families, and there are two big ones. So I'm going to give you a double top tip because that's both really important.

Matthew Taylor:

Buy one, get one free.

Rhiannon Gogh:

Buy one, get one free. So there is inheritance tax, estate planning, wills and trusts. So doing nothing as an SEND parent in the area of estate planning is rarely a good thing. So we always advise seeing a specialist wills and trust solicitor to get the estate planning ticked and safe. But on the other side, so there's like two bookends of special needs planning and that is one side, which is estate planning. The other, as Tamsin rightly said, please be careful when you're saving for a young person with SEND.

Rhiannon Gogh:

Quite often families don't realize that when the child gets to 18, if they don't have mental capacity, they will not be able to access their savings. They may be very vulnerable if they could access it and it will likely impact their means tested benefits, care, support when they get to that age. Parents are very often unaware of that.

Tamsin Caine:

Perfect, I'm going to do a buy one, get one free as well.

Matthew Taylor:

Love it.

Tamsin Caine:

So my f irst tip is that dealing with son children is not just a parental issue. It's an issue for the entire family is not just a parental issue, it's an issue for the entire family. So if you've got parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunties who are thinking of leaving money to your child, the exact same thing applies to inheritances from them as it did with inheritances from the parents. So speak to anybody you think might be likely to be leaving money to your child and explain to them about the trust that you've set up, all the work that you're doing to set trust up with specialists and make sure that they're going to be able to access those inheritances as well and that those are set up properly. So that's my first top tip.

Tamsin Caine:

My second one is please buy Rhiannon's book, because it's brilliant. Um, I've sent it out to at least six clients already. It's it will be on the list to go to anybody that I ever meet who's got um, who's got some child in their family? Um, whether it's media or their friendship group or whatever, it's flipping brilliant, thank, you one last time for a plug for the book ryan.

Matthew Taylor:

So the book is called. And where can it? Where can people get it available at all good bookshops? Let's do a proper, proper plug all good bookshops.

Rhiannon Gogh:

Yes, Planning with love by Rhiannon Gogh, all good bookshops

Matthew Taylor:

fabulous

Matthew Taylor:

Well, thank you both. That was really illuminating and hopefully really useful for people. So, um, that's it for this podcast. Thanks so much for listening. If you'd like to find out more about Stowe Talks, visit stowetalks. co. uk and please like, rate, share and review this podcast where you can. If you'd like more information on the brilliant work that Tamsin does, head to smartdivorce. co. uk for all the brilliant stuff on her website and her Smart Divorce podcast, and for all the brilliant stuff on her website and her Smart Divorce podcast. And to find out more about Rhiannon's work, head to planitfuture. co. uk. And there's also senda. org. uk. But thanks again for listening and we look forward to seeing you soon here on Stowe Talks.

Matthew Taylor:

So thanks for joining us on this special collaborative episode

Tamsin Caine:

Hi, and I hope you enjoyed that episode of the Smart Divorce Podcast. If you would like to get in touch, please have a look in the show notes for our details or go onto the website, www. smartdivorce. co. uk. Also, if you are listening on apple podcasts or on spotify and you wouldn't mind leaving us a lovely five-star review, that would be fantastic. I know that lots of our listeners are finding this is incredibly helpful in their journey through separation, divorce and dissolving a civil partnership. Also, if you would like some further support, we do have a Facebook group now. It's called separation, divorce and dissolution uk. Please do go on to facebook, search up the group and we'd be delighted to have you join us. The one thing I would say is do please answer their membership questions. Okay, have a great day and take care.

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Tamsin Caine

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